Comments on: Revelation, Consensus, and (Waning?) Patience

By: Sam Kitterman

Sam Kitterman — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 01:40:47 +0000

Thanks, Kari, for your thoughts especially as noted in #58. I should have been clearer. Ray just provided the clarification and what I meant by my comments.
The example of the white membership telling their BP either them or the Negro family out was to me very telling as to who was truly in the wrong. And why the Lord may well have had to delay correcting the doctrine (I being of the belief the Priesthood ban was more a result of human action rather than divine revelation)…
In fact, all of this brought back an incident I witnessed during my mission in So. Germany. We had two branches in this particular city, one American and the other German. I recall the German BP asking the American BP one evening about Negros and that he had been told they “have a funny odor”. Given our instructions from the mission president not to get involved in local ward “politics” I walked away rather than wait to see what the American BP responded with…..
And that was but four years from the revelation…..

By: manaen

manaen — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:54:39 +0000

While watching “Nobody Knows: The Untold Story of Black Mormons” last Saturday, the thought came to me that we went from the extended presidency of DOM through the short tenures of Presidents Smith (served 2 years, died at age 94) and Lee (served 18 months, died at age 74 to everyone’s great surprise), opponents to the change, to the extended presidency of SWK.
.
I admit that my mind drifted to Pres. Woodruff’s words included after Official Declaration – 1, The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

By: Kari

Kari — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:48:46 +0000

Ray, (#57)

Yes, I do think we agree. And I agree in the way you present the analogy. In re-reading Sam’s initial comment I can see that I misinterpreted his comments, and that he was saying what you are saying. I had interpreted his comment as likening blacks to the ancient Israelites.

I guess I shouldn’t be doing this at work, between appointments. More time is needed to really read and understand. Thanks for your patience.

By: Ray

Ray — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:27:55 +0000

Iow, Kari, I think we agree on this.

By: Ray

Ray — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:23:58 +0000

#52 – Kari, I said that the blessings that would have accompanied a lack of bigotry and full participation in the Priesthood were withheld from Blacks AND Whites. I mean that *our* (White) inability to accept the will of God in this matter kept blessings from being available to all of us (Black and White). *We* (White) kept those blessings from being given; in a very real way, *we* (not God) withheld those blessings from our Black brothers and sisters.

Full racial equality is part of our modern-day vision of Zion (or at least it should be), so I think the analogy of Israel being denied entrance into their Promised Land is a fairly good analogy for us being denied entrance into our own modern “Promised Land” until our own generations were prepared to enter it.

By: CE

CE — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:02:17 +0000

JimD (#53)–

Just looked up a couple pages of Arrington’s book on Amazon.com’s “search inside” feature. Arrington didn’t give any detail on Petersen’s absence. He merely included a footnote naming the then-current Quorum of the Twelve, and then noting that “Absent from the June 1, 8, and 9 meetings was Mark E. Petersen, who was visiting in Brazil.” (See footnote 2 on page 184). Arrington does not mention Stapley’s absence.

By: Frank McIntyre

Frank McIntyre — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:53:05 +0000

I recall a Faust quote recently to the effect that today’s quorum was more unified than any that had preceded it. As I recall he even offered a theory for why.

By: JimD

JimD — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:36:39 +0000

IIRC, Leonard Arrington included an account of the 1978 revelation in his Adventures of a Church Historian. Does anyone recall whether it explains Petersen’s absence?

By: Kari

Kari — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:16:08 +0000

Ray,

I appreciate your comments. I was specifically disagreeing with the statement that blacks being withheld the priesthood is somehow similar to the 40 years of Israel’s wandering. I still don’t agree that is a good analogy.

I think that there is very little real life difference (and very little semantic difference) between “punishment” and “withholding blessings” if there is a choice by a sentient being to give or withhold those blessings.

It is equally valid to state that the Lord withheld the blessings of the promised land as it is to state that he punished the ancient Israelites. Just as I withhold my children’s allowances when they behave in a way that they have been warned will result in their allowance being withheld. If I take an active part in the withholding of blessings I am punishing. If it takes an active part of God to give or withhold blessings, then withholding blessings is punishment. It’s just that we often don’t fully realize when God is withholding blessings. It’s not like He tells me every day “if you had been kinder to your spouse I would have blessed you with clearer intellect at work tomorrow.” If we had such specifics, we would all be better at getting our allowances.

And if we get or miss blessings without a volitional act of God, what need do we have for Him?

Lastly, I don’t believe that God was withholding blessings from, or punishing, blacks. They suffered because of the bigotry of whites, and the bigotry of Church leaders. It’s unfortunate that they exercised their agency thus. This type of suffering is neither punishment or withholding blessings, it’s the consequence of others’ actions.

Ok, I’ve hijacked this thread. I’ll stop now.

By: Steve Evans

Steve Evans — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 19:58:34 +0000

LOL