Geraldine

I think ‘punishment’ isn’t the right paradigm.*

They are punished, but it isn’t punished until they have paid, but punished until they find themselves in a position where they can repent. The moment repentence starts, mercy starts, wherever a creature dwells. The main effect of our personal evil is to minimize our ability to repent. That possibility, or ability, can be made so remote that we have to reach down almost to the very bottom of ourselves to find it. Eternal isn’t only, I think, even primarily, a measure of time, but also a measure of depth, of dimension, of totality. It could very well be that the SoP, or even some of them, have put themselves in a position – psychologically, metaphysically – where repentence is impossible. They have surrendered that element of their free will, it is no longer a part of their make-up. It isn’t a matter of God’s mercy – he can’t, pretty much by the nature of the laws by which he rules, ‘tinker with the machine.’ Inmany ways be good and kind, but never tinker with the machine – except to the degree that the machine can and does allow tinkering, hence repentence and being sanctified. And if the machine has lost that engine by which it could bring itself to repentence they must be forever outside God’s mercy, and that is an awful place to be.

A similar dynamic may work in other kingdoms.

*Forgive me for using this word.

~

So I am (belatedly) going with Dan: “Yea, yea, nay, nay.”

No matter which perspective you espouse, Geoff is correct. D&C 19 does erase *certainty* in this discussion – including Geoff’s, ironically.

Seriously, how many years in hell must one suffer before it is enough punishment? Let’s take Cain as an example. So he turned his back completely on God in this life. Let’s say his punishment is hell. How many years in hell is enough for justice to be served? 100? 1000? 10,000? 100,000? A million? At some point the punishment completely dwarfs the crime.

If spirits are eternal what about free will? Is it eternal too? If so then people are always free to have a mighty change of heart and plead to God for forgiveness. Who here thinks God just plugs his ears and says “La la la I’m not listening” in such cases? Seems to me that God would take Lucifer back if Lucifer had a real change of heart.

Luckily D&C 19 turned the notion of eternal and endless punishment completely on its head so any Mormon trying to proof-text an endless hell has to deal with that revelation first.

God is teaching us immutable (not arbitrary) laws for which He knows the consequences, both good and bad. We are all learning them to the extent of our ability to learn.

I do not believe He has to enforce His laws anymore than we have to enforce the law of gravity with our children.

And the resurrection is no different. He doesn’t dole out punishment or reward based on His personal preference, anymore than your children hitting the bottom of the cliff is discretionary on your part.

SOP’s must go with the devil and his angels because they have totally refused to accept anything else. There is no sadism on God’s part, only them reaping the consequences of their choices. The flames are not literal, but the regret that some people have over their choices even though they are unwilling to change their choice.

I wouldn’t say that God always keeps His promises, even to our detriment. I would say that eternal laws apply to us even when God might wish they didn’t.

I believe that God will give us the maximum leniency possible at all times. Which also means (IMO) that He will be as forgiving as He can be. I suspect we are just arguing past each other… we’ve each stated our view points often enough that the horse has truly been beaten to death. Agree to disagree.

To answer your oft repeated criticism, I am not Evangelical, nor do I play one on TV. I was practically born into the church (mother joined when I was less than 1 yr old).

Your explanations sound just like the explanations evangelicals try to give for their sadistic version of God. You might be comfortable arguing that God can’t change his mind about who to resurrect or not in order to be more compassionate to his children but I simply don’t believe that.

Jami: God is not a sadist.

That is exactly what I am saying.

The children of perdition are different. Because they have looked God in the eyes and then turned to Satan and followed his heinous evil, they are the exception to the everyone will be saved eventually rule. They will be resurrected because they kept their first estate, but there will be no light or glory in their never-ending life. Flames are (IMO) metaphorical. The pain will be self-inflicted and spiritual in nature. It is sad, but it is also COMPLETELY their choice.

Mercy can’t rob justice. If the SoP’s refuse, are unwilling, or are unable to repent, then justice has full claim on them. Because God keeps His word and punishes those who have gone beyond the pale in wickedness and committed an unpardonable sin, that makes Him a sadist? What do you suggest as an alternative? If one of your children murdered another one of your children in premeditated cold blood, with no remorse, or even the slightest hint of guilt, what would your reaction be? Would you be a sadist for seeing that the laws of the land were carried out?