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	<title>Comments on: I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/01/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Renato Marini</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/01/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23913</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Renato Marini]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 15:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23913</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the translation of JS from the plates was something like &quot;taking 10 out of 1&quot; process. The original language was much more compressed than our modern languages. In ancient Hebrew each letter had a meaning, so their words were like sentences for us.
Trying to put back 10 into 1 is not at all easy, having we little knowledge of the ancient cultural meanings.
To produce a modern Hebrew version of the BoM I would simply use modern Hebrew and forget about original language.
I think the &quot;Hebrew flavour&quot; of the BoM comes from words like &quot;I have dreamed a dream&quot; and &quot;I have seen a vision&quot; where the same word is used for the action (verb) and the object of that action (noun); as far as I know, this is not done in English, but it is done in ancient Hebrew.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the translation of JS from the plates was something like &#8220;taking 10 out of 1&#8243; process. The original language was much more compressed than our modern languages. In ancient Hebrew each letter had a meaning, so their words were like sentences for us.<br />
Trying to put back 10 into 1 is not at all easy, having we little knowledge of the ancient cultural meanings.<br />
To produce a modern Hebrew version of the BoM I would simply use modern Hebrew and forget about original language.<br />
I think the &#8220;Hebrew flavour&#8221; of the BoM comes from words like &#8220;I have dreamed a dream&#8221; and &#8220;I have seen a vision&#8221; where the same word is used for the action (verb) and the object of that action (noun); as far as I know, this is not done in English, but it is done in ancient Hebrew.</p>
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		<title>By: Christian</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/01/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23912</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23912</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d inferred that the book of Mormon was written in at least one Hebrew dialect (which probably changed over the centuries) in hieratic or something like it.  I just can&#039;t resist an egyptian compact language without punctuation that has a single symbol for &quot;and it came to pass.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d inferred that the book of Mormon was written in at least one Hebrew dialect (which probably changed over the centuries) in hieratic or something like it.  I just can&#8217;t resist an egyptian compact language without punctuation that has a single symbol for &#8220;and it came to pass.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Christian</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/01/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23911</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23911</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;OK, this will freak you out. What if Nephi really wrote aboth “fathers” and really meant his male ancestors in a tribal sense, his progenitors of the tribe of Manasseh? And what if Joseph, in translating that into English was influenced by his own culture to render “parents” in a nuclear family sense?

That’s enough to blow your mind.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, it makes sense; that was my first impression too when reading the facts in your article.  The term &quot;fathers&quot; would be a literal translation but not convey the Nephi&#039;s reason for why he was educated.  &quot;Ancestors&quot; is closer to the mark, but again, doesn&#039;t communicate the idea of the whole sentence to the reader of Joseph Smith&#039;s time.

What I think that your analysis is missing is that &quot;goodly&quot; in the language of Joseph Smith&#039;s day, meant prosperous, didn&#039;t it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>OK, this will freak you out. What if Nephi really wrote aboth “fathers” and really meant his male ancestors in a tribal sense, his progenitors of the tribe of Manasseh? And what if Joseph, in translating that into English was influenced by his own culture to render “parents” in a nuclear family sense?</p>
<p>That’s enough to blow your mind.</p></blockquote>
<p>No, it makes sense; that was my first impression too when reading the facts in your article.  The term &#8220;fathers&#8221; would be a literal translation but not convey the Nephi&#8217;s reason for why he was educated.  &#8220;Ancestors&#8221; is closer to the mark, but again, doesn&#8217;t communicate the idea of the whole sentence to the reader of Joseph Smith&#8217;s time.</p>
<p>What I think that your analysis is missing is that &#8220;goodly&#8221; in the language of Joseph Smith&#8217;s day, meant prosperous, didn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/01/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23910</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Will]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23910</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MattG (#39):

I think I can easily envision a scenario where the spoken language has evolved greatly -- beyond the capability to easily express it using the archaic script they&#039;re using on their permanent (metallic) records.

And I don&#039;t dispute that Mormon and Moroni obviously were at least familiar enough with Hebrew to recognize that it would have lent itself better to recording the kinds of things they were writing about.  Moroni also laments his inability to write like the brother of Jared, who obviously would not have written in either Egyptian or Hebrew.  I guess the bottom line is that I don&#039;t read too much into what Moroni says about &quot;if we could have written in Hebrew ...&quot;  To me, it says nothing more than that Moroni was a multi-linguist who had a certain personal affinity for Hebrew.  And this single reference to Hebrew in the entire book is simply not enough, in my estimation, to override the Egyptian predominance in every other reference to the language of the Nephites.

As for Joseph&#039;s translation process, I have to admit that I&#039;m a convert to the Skousen &quot;tight control&quot; theories.  I don&#039;t think Joseph Smith was given anything more than just the plain English translation that appears in the first edition of the BoM.  I certainly don&#039;t believe that there was any &quot;language&quot; revealed to Joseph, and I don&#039;t have any reason to believe that the language of Mormon was &quot;Hebrew-based.&quot;  At least, I don&#039;t know how someone could justify such a conclusion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MattG (#39):</p>
<p>I think I can easily envision a scenario where the spoken language has evolved greatly &#8212; beyond the capability to easily express it using the archaic script they&#8217;re using on their permanent (metallic) records.</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t dispute that Mormon and Moroni obviously were at least familiar enough with Hebrew to recognize that it would have lent itself better to recording the kinds of things they were writing about.  Moroni also laments his inability to write like the brother of Jared, who obviously would not have written in either Egyptian or Hebrew.  I guess the bottom line is that I don&#8217;t read too much into what Moroni says about &#8220;if we could have written in Hebrew &#8230;&#8221;  To me, it says nothing more than that Moroni was a multi-linguist who had a certain personal affinity for Hebrew.  And this single reference to Hebrew in the entire book is simply not enough, in my estimation, to override the Egyptian predominance in every other reference to the language of the Nephites.</p>
<p>As for Joseph&#8217;s translation process, I have to admit that I&#8217;m a convert to the Skousen &#8220;tight control&#8221; theories.  I don&#8217;t think Joseph Smith was given anything more than just the plain English translation that appears in the first edition of the BoM.  I certainly don&#8217;t believe that there was any &#8220;language&#8221; revealed to Joseph, and I don&#8217;t have any reason to believe that the language of Mormon was &#8220;Hebrew-based.&#8221;  At least, I don&#8217;t know how someone could justify such a conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: MattG</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/01/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23909</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MattG]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23909</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Will,

Is it not conceivable that, in light of the &quot;facts&quot; as we understand them regarding Joseph&#039;s translation process (revealed through the seer stone, rather than decoded), that the language was revealed to him as Mormon&#039;s native language, which was Hebrew based? Mormon laments in several places how insufficient and cumbersome the reformed Egyptian is in expressing his ideas. Perhaps to make up for this fact the book was revealed as he would have expressed it verbally. Just a thought.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will,</p>
<p>Is it not conceivable that, in light of the &#8220;facts&#8221; as we understand them regarding Joseph&#8217;s translation process (revealed through the seer stone, rather than decoded), that the language was revealed to him as Mormon&#8217;s native language, which was Hebrew based? Mormon laments in several places how insufficient and cumbersome the reformed Egyptian is in expressing his ideas. Perhaps to make up for this fact the book was revealed as he would have expressed it verbally. Just a thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/01/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23908</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23908</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Will, I like your scribal/intellectual snobbery argument.  That&#039;s the kind of thing we can understand and relate to even today!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, I like your scribal/intellectual snobbery argument.  That&#8217;s the kind of thing we can understand and relate to even today!</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/01/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23907</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Will]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23907</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Who (#34),

You&#039;re referring to the story of Sami Hanna.  But your details on the story are largely inaccurate.  You might want to check out this article:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Sami_Hanna_on_the_Book_of_Mormon]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who (#34),</p>
<p>You&#8217;re referring to the story of Sami Hanna.  But your details on the story are largely inaccurate.  You might want to check out this article:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.fairmormon.org/Sami_Hanna_on_the_Book_of_Mormon" rel="nofollow">http://en.fairmormon.org/Sami_Hanna_on_the_Book_of_Mormon</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/01/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23906</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23906</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;re thinking of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.fairmormon.org/Sami_Hanna_on_the_Book_of_Mormon&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Sami Hanna&lt;/a&gt;.  (His comments were based on Arabic rather than Hebrew.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re thinking of <a href="http://en.fairmormon.org/Sami_Hanna_on_the_Book_of_Mormon" rel="nofollow">Sami Hanna</a>.  (His comments were based on Arabic rather than Hebrew.)</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/01/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23905</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Will]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23905</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One thing I have been seeking -- so far pretty much in vain -- is some scholarly reference to the extent of Israelite (northern Kingdom) repatriation (as it were) in Egypt during the period immediately preceding the Assyrian conquest.

We, of course, have all the references in the OT.  And those are good because they definitely show that there was an Egyptian orientation among those who would have been inclined to flee.  And, if we assume that the plates of brass originated with Joseph in Egypt and were passed down through his lineage, and were greatly valued by their possessors, it is logical that they would have viewed a refuge in Egypt as a means by which the plates could be protected.

Of course, the question becomes: why would Israelites maintain, with great difficulty, a record of their scriptures, written in Egyptian, and inscribed on metallic plates?  I think there are logical reasons why this would be.  Of course, Ephraim and Manasseh would have both been native Egyptian speakers.  And, it could be logically concluded, their descendants for many, many generations would have been native Egyptian speakers -- at least until the Exodus.  Indeed, after 400 years living in Egypt, who among the Israelites would &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; have been an Egyptian speaker?  Probably very few, if any.  The real question is how long it would have taken before Hebrew (and/or its variants) became the lingua franca in the &quot;Promised Land?&quot;  Even in Israel today, there is great difficulty in getting new immigrants to quickly acquire Hebrew proficiency.  It takes multiple generations.

I can also easily envision a scenario where the keepers of the plates of brass would have felt a certain scholarly snobbery about their fluency in the ancient Egyptian script of the plates.  They many have regarded the language as inherently superior to the Hebrew-esque dialects being spoken by the masses, and therefore have proudly recorded their scriptures in it much as Medieval monks methodically maintained the Bible in Latin.

In any case, it is my opinion that the Book of Mormon is all but explicit in telling us that the language of Lehi&#039;s fathers was Egyptian.  This seems to presuppose that they actually &lt;i&gt;lived&lt;/i&gt; in Egypt.  And knowing, as we do, that there were many northern Kingdom refugees in Egypt for at least a few generations before Lehi, it then becomes logical to connect the dots and accept the possibility that Lehi was an Israelite born in Egypt, undoubtedly to parents also born in Egypt.  And while they undoubtedly retained their religion and cultural identity (&quot;the learning of the Jews&quot;), they would have been Egyptian both in language and residence, much like modern Jews in the diaspora.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing I have been seeking &#8212; so far pretty much in vain &#8212; is some scholarly reference to the extent of Israelite (northern Kingdom) repatriation (as it were) in Egypt during the period immediately preceding the Assyrian conquest.</p>
<p>We, of course, have all the references in the OT.  And those are good because they definitely show that there was an Egyptian orientation among those who would have been inclined to flee.  And, if we assume that the plates of brass originated with Joseph in Egypt and were passed down through his lineage, and were greatly valued by their possessors, it is logical that they would have viewed a refuge in Egypt as a means by which the plates could be protected.</p>
<p>Of course, the question becomes: why would Israelites maintain, with great difficulty, a record of their scriptures, written in Egyptian, and inscribed on metallic plates?  I think there are logical reasons why this would be.  Of course, Ephraim and Manasseh would have both been native Egyptian speakers.  And, it could be logically concluded, their descendants for many, many generations would have been native Egyptian speakers &#8212; at least until the Exodus.  Indeed, after 400 years living in Egypt, who among the Israelites would <i>not</i> have been an Egyptian speaker?  Probably very few, if any.  The real question is how long it would have taken before Hebrew (and/or its variants) became the lingua franca in the &#8220;Promised Land?&#8221;  Even in Israel today, there is great difficulty in getting new immigrants to quickly acquire Hebrew proficiency.  It takes multiple generations.</p>
<p>I can also easily envision a scenario where the keepers of the plates of brass would have felt a certain scholarly snobbery about their fluency in the ancient Egyptian script of the plates.  They many have regarded the language as inherently superior to the Hebrew-esque dialects being spoken by the masses, and therefore have proudly recorded their scriptures in it much as Medieval monks methodically maintained the Bible in Latin.</p>
<p>In any case, it is my opinion that the Book of Mormon is all but explicit in telling us that the language of Lehi&#8217;s fathers was Egyptian.  This seems to presuppose that they actually <i>lived</i> in Egypt.  And knowing, as we do, that there were many northern Kingdom refugees in Egypt for at least a few generations before Lehi, it then becomes logical to connect the dots and accept the possibility that Lehi was an Israelite born in Egypt, undoubtedly to parents also born in Egypt.  And while they undoubtedly retained their religion and cultural identity (&#8220;the learning of the Jews&#8221;), they would have been Egyptian both in language and residence, much like modern Jews in the diaspora.</p>
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		<title>By: Who?</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/01/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23904</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Who?]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/i-nephi-having-been-born-of-goodly-parents/#comment-23904</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kevin: I remember speaking with the gentleman that was hired by the Church to do the original translation of the Book of Mormon into Hebrew. He had the same reaction -- he told me that it had to be in Hebrew originally because of the construction and ease of translation. If I recall his last name was Hanna or something like that. He joined the Church. Do you recall his name and are you familiar with these events?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin: I remember speaking with the gentleman that was hired by the Church to do the original translation of the Book of Mormon into Hebrew. He had the same reaction &#8212; he told me that it had to be in Hebrew originally because of the construction and ease of translation. If I recall his last name was Hanna or something like that. He joined the Church. Do you recall his name and are you familiar with these events?</p>
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