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	<title>Comments on: Utah&#8217;s Divides</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/17/utahs-divides/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Yet Another John</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/17/utahs-divides/#comment-88501</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Yet Another John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/utahs-divides/#comment-88501</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think I&#039;m starting to detect a little bit of reverse &quot;elitism&quot; creeping in this thread of &quot;Thank the good Lord I&#039;m not a Utah Mormon&quot;.  Well, some of us here in Utah also thank Him that you&#039;re not a Utah Mormon!  Otherwise the &quot;crick&quot; might in fact become the &quot;creek&quot; and my mother-in-law would have to start taking &quot;hormones&quot; instead of &quot;harmones&quot;.  Either that, or we might find ourselves translated due to the sudden influx of righteousness.

Seriously, in or out of Utah, we all face challenges to our faith that are real.  For those of us in Utah it might be the fact that we are sheltered to some extent from the &quot;world&quot; or that some kids drink on Saturday and then bless the sacrament on Sunday.  There are certain challenges growing up with cultural, but not particularly religious Mormons.  It&#039;s a little harder to define your faith when comparing it with all the various degrees of Mormondom to be found in small Utah towns, than say, contrasting it with religious beliefs of Southern Baptists.  Not saying one is harder than the other, it&#039;s just different.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;m starting to detect a little bit of reverse &#8220;elitism&#8221; creeping in this thread of &#8220;Thank the good Lord I&#8217;m not a Utah Mormon&#8221;.  Well, some of us here in Utah also thank Him that you&#8217;re not a Utah Mormon!  Otherwise the &#8220;crick&#8221; might in fact become the &#8220;creek&#8221; and my mother-in-law would have to start taking &#8220;hormones&#8221; instead of &#8220;harmones&#8221;.  Either that, or we might find ourselves translated due to the sudden influx of righteousness.</p>
<p>Seriously, in or out of Utah, we all face challenges to our faith that are real.  For those of us in Utah it might be the fact that we are sheltered to some extent from the &#8220;world&#8221; or that some kids drink on Saturday and then bless the sacrament on Sunday.  There are certain challenges growing up with cultural, but not particularly religious Mormons.  It&#8217;s a little harder to define your faith when comparing it with all the various degrees of Mormondom to be found in small Utah towns, than say, contrasting it with religious beliefs of Southern Baptists.  Not saying one is harder than the other, it&#8217;s just different.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer in GA</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/17/utahs-divides/#comment-88500</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jennifer in GA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/utahs-divides/#comment-88500</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My husband is from Arizona, and luckily he loves the south as much as I do, and has no desire to move back out west. I jokingly tell people that I wouldn&#039;t want to live in UT/AZ/ID because there are too many Mormons. ;)

But in all honesty, there&#039;s something to be said for growing up LDS in the Bible Belt of the US. When everyone is looking at you as the example of your religion, it makes you think long and hard before you do something you know you shouldn&#039;t. And when you&#039;re constatnly accused of being a member of a cult, and told that you&#039;re going to hell because you aren&#039;t saved, it makes you examine your testimony pretty closely to see if you really believe what you say you believe.

I&#039;m not saying that those members living in UT/ID/AZ/etc aren&#039;t challenged on their beliefs, or that they don&#039;t have their own trials. But I know my husband was never accused of being a devil worshipper, and he never got asked how many wives his dad had, and he was never prevented from joining the Fellowship of Christian athletes because has was LDS.

I find it fascinating to look at the things that divide one Mormon from another. It sure makes getting to that &quot;one mind, one heart&quot; point a lot more difficult than it should be! ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My husband is from Arizona, and luckily he loves the south as much as I do, and has no desire to move back out west. I jokingly tell people that I wouldn&#8217;t want to live in UT/AZ/ID because there are too many Mormons. ;)</p>
<p>But in all honesty, there&#8217;s something to be said for growing up LDS in the Bible Belt of the US. When everyone is looking at you as the example of your religion, it makes you think long and hard before you do something you know you shouldn&#8217;t. And when you&#8217;re constatnly accused of being a member of a cult, and told that you&#8217;re going to hell because you aren&#8217;t saved, it makes you examine your testimony pretty closely to see if you really believe what you say you believe.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that those members living in UT/ID/AZ/etc aren&#8217;t challenged on their beliefs, or that they don&#8217;t have their own trials. But I know my husband was never accused of being a devil worshipper, and he never got asked how many wives his dad had, and he was never prevented from joining the Fellowship of Christian athletes because has was LDS.</p>
<p>I find it fascinating to look at the things that divide one Mormon from another. It sure makes getting to that &#8220;one mind, one heart&#8221; point a lot more difficult than it should be! ;)</p>
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		<title>By: cj douglass</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/17/utahs-divides/#comment-88499</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cj douglass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/utahs-divides/#comment-88499</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;If I wasn’t LDS, I don’t think I would want to live in Utah, simply because the culture is *so* insulating. There’s the sense that you’re either part of it, or you’re not, and too bad for you.&lt;/em&gt;

I feel ya Jennifer. Except, I&#039;m a member and still don&#039;t feel part of *it* (when I visit). If for some strange reason my job transfered me to Utah, I&#039;m afraid I would go inactive - or shoot myself. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>If I wasn’t LDS, I don’t think I would want to live in Utah, simply because the culture is *so* insulating. There’s the sense that you’re either part of it, or you’re not, and too bad for you.</em></p>
<p>I feel ya Jennifer. Except, I&#8217;m a member and still don&#8217;t feel part of *it* (when I visit). If for some strange reason my job transfered me to Utah, I&#8217;m afraid I would go inactive &#8211; or shoot myself. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer in GA</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/17/utahs-divides/#comment-88498</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jennifer in GA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/utahs-divides/#comment-88498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;Really? I’d rather take heat from walking in front of someone’s photo op than submit to the hounding of the robot tour guides who can’t seem to get over viewing visitors as little more than potential converts/referrers&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Well, yes, there was that too. :D I walked into the Ladies bathroom at one of the Visitor&#039;s Centers and there was a very sweet sister missionary waiting to ask me if I wanted anymore info on the church. I told her I was already a member and proceeded to the stall. I wondered what she had done to warrant bathroom duty! ;) (For the record, she was actually in a little sitting area in the bathroom, as opposed to standing in front of the stalls and sinks. Still, stationing a missionary in the bathroom? It&#039;s a little much, you know?)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Really? I’d rather take heat from walking in front of someone’s photo op than submit to the hounding of the robot tour guides who can’t seem to get over viewing visitors as little more than potential converts/referrers&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Well, yes, there was that too. :D I walked into the Ladies bathroom at one of the Visitor&#8217;s Centers and there was a very sweet sister missionary waiting to ask me if I wanted anymore info on the church. I told her I was already a member and proceeded to the stall. I wondered what she had done to warrant bathroom duty! ;) (For the record, she was actually in a little sitting area in the bathroom, as opposed to standing in front of the stalls and sinks. Still, stationing a missionary in the bathroom? It&#8217;s a little much, you know?)</p>
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		<title>By: Peter LLC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/17/utahs-divides/#comment-88497</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter LLC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/utahs-divides/#comment-88497</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Then there was our visit to Temple Square where we were constantly told -quite rudely- to move, get out of the way, etc, by photographers and couples. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Really? I&#039;d rather take heat from walking in front of someone&#039;s photo op than submit to the hounding of the robot tour guides who can&#039;t seem to get over viewing visitors as little more than potential converts/referrers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Then there was our visit to Temple Square where we were constantly told -quite rudely- to move, get out of the way, etc, by photographers and couples. </p></blockquote>
<p>Really? I&#8217;d rather take heat from walking in front of someone&#8217;s photo op than submit to the hounding of the robot tour guides who can&#8217;t seem to get over viewing visitors as little more than potential converts/referrers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/17/utahs-divides/#comment-88496</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/utahs-divides/#comment-88496</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fwiw, anywhere that produces a map of an entire congregation, complete with each and every house designated by last name of residence (with both &quot;non-member&quot; houses designated as such) . . . on one side of an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper is a unique place worthy of study.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fwiw, anywhere that produces a map of an entire congregation, complete with each and every house designated by last name of residence (with both &#8220;non-member&#8221; houses designated as such) . . . on one side of an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper is a unique place worthy of study.</p>
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		<title>By: David Knowlton</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/17/utahs-divides/#comment-88495</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Knowlton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/utahs-divides/#comment-88495</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ronan,

I think the development of local holy sites, as well as local pilgrimages, is important to document in all their complexity.

In Bolivia some LDS scholars are resignifying the pre-Columbian ruins with Book of Mormon meanings thereby creating pilgrimages that are both nationalistic and Mormon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ronan,</p>
<p>I think the development of local holy sites, as well as local pilgrimages, is important to document in all their complexity.</p>
<p>In Bolivia some LDS scholars are resignifying the pre-Columbian ruins with Book of Mormon meanings thereby creating pilgrimages that are both nationalistic and Mormon.</p>
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		<title>By: David Knowlton</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/17/utahs-divides/#comment-88494</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Knowlton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/utahs-divides/#comment-88494</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To Ronan, Jennifer and others,

I remember, when my parents lived in Utah and I did not, trying to explain to people in my wards in either Missouri or Texas that I was visiting family there and not making a pilgrimage.  People would often speak either critically or with reverence of Utah.  I just wanted to visit my parents and not engage all the LDS stuff. That was hard for many to grasp.

Here though is an issue for pilgrimages.  Utah is both strongly worldy, peculiar, and hyper-nationalist, at the same time the story of the pioneers and exodus from Illinois, as well as the center of a world-wide Church is connected with it.

In this it reminds me of the pilgrimage site in Copacabana, Bolivia where I have lived.  Tens of thousands of pilgrims arrive each year seeking the blessings of the miraculous Virgin, yet the place is also very earthly and troublesome.  The Franciscans who are currently in charge of the shrine live in perennial tension with the town, since they attempt to correct it and make it appropriate for hosting a place of holiness.  The people there continue with their commerce and lives.

It also reminds me of what I have read about the Road to Santiago, one of the great pilgrimages.

Utah is more than a place where people live and do what people do.  It is a symbol as well.  People may come wanting the holy, the symbol, and instead find the earthly.  The reverse may also be the case.

BTW the numbers are slowly disappearing from Utah road signs and the media seems to be attempting to change the dropping of two 00&#039;s in road names.  In an age of increasing homogenization--McDonaldization--I for one lament the increasing passing of this Utah peculiarity.  it is not gone.  But it is challenged.

At first it is a challenge, I know from having moved here myself.  After a while though it is much more useful than other systems I have experienced in many of the worlds cities.  I neither need a map or a GPS system.  Tell me the coordinates and the town and I can find the address. It is amazingly efficient, although not without its own trials.

Dennis, Kevinf, and others&#039; comments on Ogden remind me of why I live in Salt Lake City and not Utah County.  Just a personal peculiarity, but I was raised in diversity on the Mexican border and I like living with diversity. Salt Lake City, not the valley, provides it for me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Ronan, Jennifer and others,</p>
<p>I remember, when my parents lived in Utah and I did not, trying to explain to people in my wards in either Missouri or Texas that I was visiting family there and not making a pilgrimage.  People would often speak either critically or with reverence of Utah.  I just wanted to visit my parents and not engage all the LDS stuff. That was hard for many to grasp.</p>
<p>Here though is an issue for pilgrimages.  Utah is both strongly worldy, peculiar, and hyper-nationalist, at the same time the story of the pioneers and exodus from Illinois, as well as the center of a world-wide Church is connected with it.</p>
<p>In this it reminds me of the pilgrimage site in Copacabana, Bolivia where I have lived.  Tens of thousands of pilgrims arrive each year seeking the blessings of the miraculous Virgin, yet the place is also very earthly and troublesome.  The Franciscans who are currently in charge of the shrine live in perennial tension with the town, since they attempt to correct it and make it appropriate for hosting a place of holiness.  The people there continue with their commerce and lives.</p>
<p>It also reminds me of what I have read about the Road to Santiago, one of the great pilgrimages.</p>
<p>Utah is more than a place where people live and do what people do.  It is a symbol as well.  People may come wanting the holy, the symbol, and instead find the earthly.  The reverse may also be the case.</p>
<p>BTW the numbers are slowly disappearing from Utah road signs and the media seems to be attempting to change the dropping of two 00&#8242;s in road names.  In an age of increasing homogenization&#8211;McDonaldization&#8211;I for one lament the increasing passing of this Utah peculiarity.  it is not gone.  But it is challenged.</p>
<p>At first it is a challenge, I know from having moved here myself.  After a while though it is much more useful than other systems I have experienced in many of the worlds cities.  I neither need a map or a GPS system.  Tell me the coordinates and the town and I can find the address. It is amazingly efficient, although not without its own trials.</p>
<p>Dennis, Kevinf, and others&#8217; comments on Ogden remind me of why I live in Salt Lake City and not Utah County.  Just a personal peculiarity, but I was raised in diversity on the Mexican border and I like living with diversity. Salt Lake City, not the valley, provides it for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevinf</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/17/utahs-divides/#comment-88493</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevinf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/utahs-divides/#comment-88493</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dennis, # 45,

Interesting comments.  My wife and I both grew up in Ogden, moved to Salt Lake shortly after getting married, and then back to Kaysville in Davis County for 14 years before moving to the Seattle area.  Kaysville was a wonderful place in many ways, but it always felt a little artificial in it&#039;s sameness.  Brown hair and brown eyes put you in the minority, and seriously, there were only 3 non-members in our entire ward boundaries when we moved.  Part of the motivation for moving to Seattle was to relieve some of the &quot;Truman Show&quot; kind of feeling. Ogden always was, and continues to be, different than most of the rest of Utah.  I think that&#039;s why we enjoy Washington so much.

Ray, I&#039;ve caught fish on Otter Creek, and hunted deer on the mountain above Fish Lake.  Good times, but I was only allowed there because of my brother in law.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennis, # 45,</p>
<p>Interesting comments.  My wife and I both grew up in Ogden, moved to Salt Lake shortly after getting married, and then back to Kaysville in Davis County for 14 years before moving to the Seattle area.  Kaysville was a wonderful place in many ways, but it always felt a little artificial in it&#8217;s sameness.  Brown hair and brown eyes put you in the minority, and seriously, there were only 3 non-members in our entire ward boundaries when we moved.  Part of the motivation for moving to Seattle was to relieve some of the &#8220;Truman Show&#8221; kind of feeling. Ogden always was, and continues to be, different than most of the rest of Utah.  I think that&#8217;s why we enjoy Washington so much.</p>
<p>Ray, I&#8217;ve caught fish on Otter Creek, and hunted deer on the mountain above Fish Lake.  Good times, but I was only allowed there because of my brother in law.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer in GA</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/17/utahs-divides/#comment-88492</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jennifer in GA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/03/utahs-divides/#comment-88492</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;It’s true that internationals of means make pilgrimages to Utah, but I’ve noticed that they often return with a certain degree of disappointment. They are glad they went, but the overt Americanness of Utah, and the mingling of church and culture there leaves them ever-so-slightly unimpressed.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

*raises hand*

I&#039;m not an international, but I (a life-long member of the church) visited Utah for the first time in 2004. Needless to say, my expectations and the realities were very different!

- When we would ask for directions, people automatically assumed that we knew that 1) the grid system started over at every town (so much for the idea that it starts at Temple Square and goes out from there!) and 2) the last two digits of every road was automatically lopped off (saying &quot;Go to 56&quot; instead of &quot;5600&quot;) Not being from Utah, we didn&#039;t know any of this! We spent the first few days driving around in circles till we got the hang of things.

- Then there was our visit to Temple Square, where we were constantly told -quite rudely- to move, get out of the way, etc, by photographers and couples. We did our best to be respectful of their special day, but I couldn&#039;t help but wonder what non-member tourists thought of their actions! Especially considering the temple is the main tourist attraction in SLC.

- When we got home, we made a list of &quot;Things you would only see in Utah&quot; just to amuse ourselves. The sign in a yard in front of a house annoucing &quot;Ward Enrichment Tonight - 7pm&quot; was on top of the list.

If I wasn&#039;t LDS, I don&#039;t think I would want to live in Utah, simply because the culture is *so* insulating. There&#039;s the sense that you&#039;re either part of it, or you&#039;re not, and too bad for you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;It’s true that internationals of means make pilgrimages to Utah, but I’ve noticed that they often return with a certain degree of disappointment. They are glad they went, but the overt Americanness of Utah, and the mingling of church and culture there leaves them ever-so-slightly unimpressed.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>*raises hand*</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not an international, but I (a life-long member of the church) visited Utah for the first time in 2004. Needless to say, my expectations and the realities were very different!</p>
<p>- When we would ask for directions, people automatically assumed that we knew that 1) the grid system started over at every town (so much for the idea that it starts at Temple Square and goes out from there!) and 2) the last two digits of every road was automatically lopped off (saying &#8220;Go to 56&#8243; instead of &#8220;5600&#8243;) Not being from Utah, we didn&#8217;t know any of this! We spent the first few days driving around in circles till we got the hang of things.</p>
<p>- Then there was our visit to Temple Square, where we were constantly told -quite rudely- to move, get out of the way, etc, by photographers and couples. We did our best to be respectful of their special day, but I couldn&#8217;t help but wonder what non-member tourists thought of their actions! Especially considering the temple is the main tourist attraction in SLC.</p>
<p>- When we got home, we made a list of &#8220;Things you would only see in Utah&#8221; just to amuse ourselves. The sign in a yard in front of a house annoucing &#8220;Ward Enrichment Tonight &#8211; 7pm&#8221; was on top of the list.</p>
<p>If I wasn&#8217;t LDS, I don&#8217;t think I would want to live in Utah, simply because the culture is *so* insulating. There&#8217;s the sense that you&#8217;re either part of it, or you&#8217;re not, and too bad for you.</p>
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