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	<title>Comments on: Your Friday Firestorm #43</title>
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		<title>By: Max Lawson</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/18/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41892</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max Lawson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 20:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41892</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Being LDS, I have been doing some research on this very recently. The nephites were of large stature - giants if you will. seven feet tall generally. The Nephites in North America are associated with the Moundbuilders of the MId west and more so of the Ohio Valley. Some have stated that the Adena and Hopewell peoples are the people of Lehi. We here have found skeletons of huge persons in Conneaut Ohio circa 1820&#039;s some mummified in the mounds and in a large four acre cemetary. It is generally believed by some that the Smithsonian Institution is trying to cover this up due in large part that it will turn the world upside down.  There is a tradition among the Hawaiians that the first Hawaiians were large (seven feet tall)with red hair. The Conneaut Giants also had apparently similar characteristics. There are some BOM scholars who absolutely will not give up on the Central/South America landing and domicile sites for the people of Lehi. What about New York state? I believe Cumorah is right where it belongs but for some reason we do not believe. Why? Do you know what the word Niagra means in Algonquin? Narrow neck of land. I believe that Hagoth left not from the West Coast, but from the St. Lawrence river. I`d love to present this more.  Finally, near Waikaloa here on the Big Island of Hawaii one of our church members operating a backhoe during the construction of one of the resorts fell into a burial. Inside was a mummified red haired seven foot body with sword and shield placed not in a canoe of hawaiian design but a 100 foot long ship. Since Hagoth constructed his great ship from the local lumber, I&#039;d like to get a piece and see if it came from the hardwood forests of new york or ontario.

If anyone is interested, please contact me. I don&#039;t think I am far off.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being LDS, I have been doing some research on this very recently. The nephites were of large stature &#8211; giants if you will. seven feet tall generally. The Nephites in North America are associated with the Moundbuilders of the MId west and more so of the Ohio Valley. Some have stated that the Adena and Hopewell peoples are the people of Lehi. We here have found skeletons of huge persons in Conneaut Ohio circa 1820&#8242;s some mummified in the mounds and in a large four acre cemetary. It is generally believed by some that the Smithsonian Institution is trying to cover this up due in large part that it will turn the world upside down.  There is a tradition among the Hawaiians that the first Hawaiians were large (seven feet tall)with red hair. The Conneaut Giants also had apparently similar characteristics. There are some BOM scholars who absolutely will not give up on the Central/South America landing and domicile sites for the people of Lehi. What about New York state? I believe Cumorah is right where it belongs but for some reason we do not believe. Why? Do you know what the word Niagra means in Algonquin? Narrow neck of land. I believe that Hagoth left not from the West Coast, but from the St. Lawrence river. I`d love to present this more.  Finally, near Waikaloa here on the Big Island of Hawaii one of our church members operating a backhoe during the construction of one of the resorts fell into a burial. Inside was a mummified red haired seven foot body with sword and shield placed not in a canoe of hawaiian design but a 100 foot long ship. Since Hagoth constructed his great ship from the local lumber, I&#8217;d like to get a piece and see if it came from the hardwood forests of new york or ontario.</p>
<p>If anyone is interested, please contact me. I don&#8217;t think I am far off.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Lewis Livingston</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/18/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41891</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jared Lewis Livingston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 00:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[What about this &lt;a href=&quot;http://mentinah.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://mentinah.com/&lt;/a&gt;.  Read the pdfs. Tis the record of Hagoth and those whom with he accompanied.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about this <a href="http://mentinah.com/" rel="nofollow">http://mentinah.com/</a>.  Read the pdfs. Tis the record of Hagoth and those whom with he accompanied.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan A.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/18/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41890</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Juan A.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 20:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41890</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whenver I think of Hagoth i tend to think more of a trade route between the northern lands and those of the south. Surely many ships would have been lost at sea. But the fact that ships returned signals a constant route more than a going  and never coming back. Also its seems too late on history for a development of polynesian cultures. Wasnt this time aroudn 200bc or so? Also the closest islands are Hawaii and Rapa Nui. While the trade winds would have guided the ship towards the island, coming back against the wind might&#039;ve well have been an impossible task. Those going to polynesia would not have been able to come back. Moreover the progression on the pacific island development shows a colonization progressing from West to East, and not from East to West. It was the Lapita people (who&#039;s real name we dont know), who initiated pacific explorations around 3000 years ago. I have also read (National Geographic Magazine, issue of March 2008) that the Lapita people&#039;s lenguage originated in Taiwan, while their pottery may have come from the Phillipines. I believe the polynesians might&#039;ve been more directly related to the Jaredites. After modern (and ancient) polynesians are large in stature, as the Jaredites were according to the Book of Mormon (remember the Nephite expedition that got lost and ended up in forsaken Jaredite territory, where the breast plates found were much too large for the Nephites to wear). Just a thought]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whenver I think of Hagoth i tend to think more of a trade route between the northern lands and those of the south. Surely many ships would have been lost at sea. But the fact that ships returned signals a constant route more than a going  and never coming back. Also its seems too late on history for a development of polynesian cultures. Wasnt this time aroudn 200bc or so? Also the closest islands are Hawaii and Rapa Nui. While the trade winds would have guided the ship towards the island, coming back against the wind might&#8217;ve well have been an impossible task. Those going to polynesia would not have been able to come back. Moreover the progression on the pacific island development shows a colonization progressing from West to East, and not from East to West. It was the Lapita people (who&#8217;s real name we dont know), who initiated pacific explorations around 3000 years ago. I have also read (National Geographic Magazine, issue of March 2008) that the Lapita people&#8217;s lenguage originated in Taiwan, while their pottery may have come from the Phillipines. I believe the polynesians might&#8217;ve been more directly related to the Jaredites. After modern (and ancient) polynesians are large in stature, as the Jaredites were according to the Book of Mormon (remember the Nephite expedition that got lost and ended up in forsaken Jaredite territory, where the breast plates found were much too large for the Nephites to wear). Just a thought</p>
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		<title>By: Juan A.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/18/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41889</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Juan A.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 20:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41889</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whenver I think of Hagoth i tend to think more of a trade route between the northern lands and those of the south. Surely many ships would have been lost at sea. But the fact that ships returned signals a constant route more than a going  and never coming back. Also its seems too late on history for a development of polynesian cultures. Wasnt this time aroudn 200bc or so? Also the closest islands are Hawaii and Rapa Nui. While the trade winds would have guided the ship towards the island, coming back against the wind might&#039;ve well have been an impossible task. Those going to polynesia would not have been able to come back. Moreover the progression on the pacific island development shows a colonization progressing from West to East, and not from East to West. It was the Lapita people (who&#039;s real name we dont know), who initiated pacific explorations around 3000 years ago.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whenver I think of Hagoth i tend to think more of a trade route between the northern lands and those of the south. Surely many ships would have been lost at sea. But the fact that ships returned signals a constant route more than a going  and never coming back. Also its seems too late on history for a development of polynesian cultures. Wasnt this time aroudn 200bc or so? Also the closest islands are Hawaii and Rapa Nui. While the trade winds would have guided the ship towards the island, coming back against the wind might&#8217;ve well have been an impossible task. Those going to polynesia would not have been able to come back. Moreover the progression on the pacific island development shows a colonization progressing from West to East, and not from East to West. It was the Lapita people (who&#8217;s real name we dont know), who initiated pacific explorations around 3000 years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/18/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41888</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41888</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#60 - ArielW, it is purely speculative, and I really am not convinced at all, but there are some fascinating issues with the Ainu that still have not been explained fully - or even at all.

NOBODY has any clue where they came from linguistically, and there are apparent skeletal connections to Western North America and Latin America.  Based on the DNA analysis, the standard assumption is a Russian or Mongolian origin, but the language is totally unrelated to Russian and Mongolian - which would fit many beliefs regarding the origin of the Jaredites.  It would be quite natural for those who believed their ancestors had crossed the great waters in the past (Nephite or Jaredite) to attempt to return to the land of those ancestors - and Northeast Asia would fit the course described for Hagoth&#039;s ships&#039; journey.

(I also agree that it is not apparent Hagoth himself ever sailed with the ships.  In fact, in verse 7 he appears to have been building ships before the first one returned.  He very well might have been nothing but a contract builder and travel agent for a group of people trying to leave for uninhabited land.)

Good old Wikipedia has some basic links.  I&#039;m not aware of any good works written from a Mormon perspective - as it most likely is just wishful thinking on the part of Japanese missionaries and church members.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#60 &#8211; ArielW, it is purely speculative, and I really am not convinced at all, but there are some fascinating issues with the Ainu that still have not been explained fully &#8211; or even at all.</p>
<p>NOBODY has any clue where they came from linguistically, and there are apparent skeletal connections to Western North America and Latin America.  Based on the DNA analysis, the standard assumption is a Russian or Mongolian origin, but the language is totally unrelated to Russian and Mongolian &#8211; which would fit many beliefs regarding the origin of the Jaredites.  It would be quite natural for those who believed their ancestors had crossed the great waters in the past (Nephite or Jaredite) to attempt to return to the land of those ancestors &#8211; and Northeast Asia would fit the course described for Hagoth&#8217;s ships&#8217; journey.</p>
<p>(I also agree that it is not apparent Hagoth himself ever sailed with the ships.  In fact, in verse 7 he appears to have been building ships before the first one returned.  He very well might have been nothing but a contract builder and travel agent for a group of people trying to leave for uninhabited land.)</p>
<p>Good old Wikipedia has some basic links.  I&#8217;m not aware of any good works written from a Mormon perspective &#8211; as it most likely is just wishful thinking on the part of Japanese missionaries and church members.</p>
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		<title>By: JT</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/18/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41887</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41887</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know if anyone is still reading this thread, but I thought this observation from John Sorenson in &lt;em&gt;An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon&lt;/em&gt; was interesting:

&lt;blockquote&gt;What about the LDS tradition that Hagoth, the Nephite shipbuilder who failed to return home, was an ancestor of the Polynesians? Years ago I compiled a large body of shared culture traits that indeed suggest historical links between those islands and various parts of the Americas, and this has been supplemented by others. Yet the evidence does not allow our pinning down any single time or place for a migration of trade that would persuasively explain the similarities. It remains impossible to demonstrate any clearcut connection between the two areas, although debate continues. Having been a missionary in Polynesia, I am well aware of the Hagoth theme in LDS tradition, but the evidence available does not support it as historically based fact. Neither can we rule out the possibility of a rare voyage between the mainland and the islands. Most of the evidence cited one way or the other is either weak or unclear. Those who choose to believe that Hagoth reached Polynesia must rely mainly on faith rather than on reliable evidence. The Book of Mormon itself, of course, says only that the man and his mates disappeared from the knowledge of the people in Zarahemla. For all they knew he might have died at a ripe old age on the west Mexican coast without a suitable vessel in which to make the return voyage. And neither do we know. (p. 269)&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if anyone is still reading this thread, but I thought this observation from John Sorenson in <em>An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon</em> was interesting:</p>
<blockquote><p>What about the LDS tradition that Hagoth, the Nephite shipbuilder who failed to return home, was an ancestor of the Polynesians? Years ago I compiled a large body of shared culture traits that indeed suggest historical links between those islands and various parts of the Americas, and this has been supplemented by others. Yet the evidence does not allow our pinning down any single time or place for a migration of trade that would persuasively explain the similarities. It remains impossible to demonstrate any clearcut connection between the two areas, although debate continues. Having been a missionary in Polynesia, I am well aware of the Hagoth theme in LDS tradition, but the evidence available does not support it as historically based fact. Neither can we rule out the possibility of a rare voyage between the mainland and the islands. Most of the evidence cited one way or the other is either weak or unclear. Those who choose to believe that Hagoth reached Polynesia must rely mainly on faith rather than on reliable evidence. The Book of Mormon itself, of course, says only that the man and his mates disappeared from the knowledge of the people in Zarahemla. For all they knew he might have died at a ripe old age on the west Mexican coast without a suitable vessel in which to make the return voyage. And neither do we know. (p. 269)</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: ArielW</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/18/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41886</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ArielW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 05:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41886</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#57 Ray, a fascinating idea.  Do you have any reference material that you can point me to on this hypothesis or was it purely anecdotal?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#57 Ray, a fascinating idea.  Do you have any reference material that you can point me to on this hypothesis or was it purely anecdotal?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/18/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41885</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41885</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Awesome, John.  It would fit in with the wagonload of plates.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome, John.  It would fit in with the wagonload of plates.</p>
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		<title>By: John Hamer</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/18/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41884</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Hamer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41884</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was inspired to write a continuation of this scripture several years ago.  I wrote out the complete outline, but only finished one chapter (2nd Migrations 29:1-71) &lt;em&gt;&quot;In which Hagoth gives his final address to the people, exhorting them to remember the words of the prophets. Hagoth then blesses his children.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

This is a taste of how it goes:
&lt;blockquote&gt;1.  Now behold the times were accomplished and the days of Hagoth were numbered, and the number was great, for ninety and two years had passed since he was born in the land of Joshua and forty and nine had passed since he, led as he was by his curiosity, brought the people up out of the land of the Nephites.
2.  Therefore he called together the people of Hagoth, all of them round about from the whole island of Hagoth, and also those who dwelled on the islands of Lib, and of Gergish, of Perionti, and of Lehi and also the islands which were beyond the island of Lehi.  Thus all the people of Hagoth were called together, who were descended of those who set forth from the land of the Nephites in ships, save it were those dwelling on the islands of Ubal, of Mirom, and of Sheriandi and those islands round about.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was inspired to write a continuation of this scripture several years ago.  I wrote out the complete outline, but only finished one chapter (2nd Migrations 29:1-71) <em>&#8220;In which Hagoth gives his final address to the people, exhorting them to remember the words of the prophets. Hagoth then blesses his children.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>This is a taste of how it goes:</p>
<blockquote><p>1.  Now behold the times were accomplished and the days of Hagoth were numbered, and the number was great, for ninety and two years had passed since he was born in the land of Joshua and forty and nine had passed since he, led as he was by his curiosity, brought the people up out of the land of the Nephites.<br />
2.  Therefore he called together the people of Hagoth, all of them round about from the whole island of Hagoth, and also those who dwelled on the islands of Lib, and of Gergish, of Perionti, and of Lehi and also the islands which were beyond the island of Lehi.  Thus all the people of Hagoth were called together, who were descended of those who set forth from the land of the Nephites in ships, save it were those dwelling on the islands of Ubal, of Mirom, and of Sheriandi and those islands round about.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/18/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41883</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 03:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/your-friday-firestorm-43/#comment-41883</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#53 - I think the point is that if a small raft could do it, a large ship certainly could do it.

I think the white-skinned Ainu of Japan were the descendants of Hagoth&#039;s groups - at least that was the legend on my mission.  After all, modern Japanese as reformed Chinese is a very good possibility of how reformed Egyptian could have evolved.  That&#039;s an absolutely fascinating topic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#53 &#8211; I think the point is that if a small raft could do it, a large ship certainly could do it.</p>
<p>I think the white-skinned Ainu of Japan were the descendants of Hagoth&#8217;s groups &#8211; at least that was the legend on my mission.  After all, modern Japanese as reformed Chinese is a very good possibility of how reformed Egyptian could have evolved.  That&#8217;s an absolutely fascinating topic.</p>
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