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	<title>Comments on: Of potatoes and prayers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: banister</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65044</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[banister]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 04:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65044</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If we want to do what&#039;s right then we need to minister to anyone in need.  Alcoholics and addicts are no less &quot;deserving&quot; of our assistance than anyone else.  No matter what.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we want to do what&#8217;s right then we need to minister to anyone in need.  Alcoholics and addicts are no less &#8220;deserving&#8221; of our assistance than anyone else.  No matter what.</p>
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		<title>By: cj douglass</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65096</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cj douglass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:27:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65096</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Down with meetings! Thanks Brigham! ...I&#039;m not joking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Down with meetings! Thanks Brigham! &#8230;I&#8217;m not joking.</p>
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		<title>By: Jami</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65095</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jami]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65095</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I still say shame and humiliation are an unhealthy and unnecessary part of the mix. For something that is &lt;strong&gt; not&lt;/strong&gt;  sin.

The emotional energy that it takes to process shame and humiliation is much better spent on becoming more Christ-like, working on solutions to the financial difficulties, and supporting/loving each other in times of stress.

MAC, thanks for the respect, I guess.  And with all due respect in return, I suggest that you won&#039;t find the scenario nearly as cut and dried when you are the one in need of assistance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still say shame and humiliation are an unhealthy and unnecessary part of the mix. For something that is <strong> not</strong>  sin.</p>
<p>The emotional energy that it takes to process shame and humiliation is much better spent on becoming more Christ-like, working on solutions to the financial difficulties, and supporting/loving each other in times of stress.</p>
<p>MAC, thanks for the respect, I guess.  And with all due respect in return, I suggest that you won&#8217;t find the scenario nearly as cut and dried when you are the one in need of assistance.</p>
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		<title>By: MAC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65094</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MAC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65094</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jami,

Let me give you a little context.

My grandparents raised 7 kids.  My mother was truly homeless for a period totaling years, she was effectively homeless for most of her childhood.  My grandmother almost never talked about it, my mother lets out small pieces, I am close to an aunt who has filled in a many of the details.

I don&#039;t remember my grandfather, but my grandmother was a humble, religious woman who probably could have won a bar fight in her day and could send chills down your spine with a look.  The children she raised ended up successful and generally happy, though a few took the long way to get there.

Without going into detail, some of the situation could be excused by things outside of my grandmother&#039;s influence, but for the most part they could not.  I know, from things she has said, that she is still ashamed of certain things.  This is many, many years after the fact, the shame is not based on the reactions of non-family members and her children have frequently absolved her.  The youngest siblings have said that they just thought they spent a lot of time camping and the older siblings all talk fondly of the &quot;adventurous&quot; aspects of their childhoods.

The shame she felt was internal, an organic response and acknowledgeable that she was human and owned her own mistakes.  It was part and parcel to the person that she is and I hope that I inherited some of it from her.

Of course I don&#039;t rejoice in in the fact that you or Tracy cried when asking for help.  I respect you for that response. In the same also I am disappointed when one takes what is offered shamelessly and with a sentiment of entitlement.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jami,</p>
<p>Let me give you a little context.</p>
<p>My grandparents raised 7 kids.  My mother was truly homeless for a period totaling years, she was effectively homeless for most of her childhood.  My grandmother almost never talked about it, my mother lets out small pieces, I am close to an aunt who has filled in a many of the details.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t remember my grandfather, but my grandmother was a humble, religious woman who probably could have won a bar fight in her day and could send chills down your spine with a look.  The children she raised ended up successful and generally happy, though a few took the long way to get there.</p>
<p>Without going into detail, some of the situation could be excused by things outside of my grandmother&#8217;s influence, but for the most part they could not.  I know, from things she has said, that she is still ashamed of certain things.  This is many, many years after the fact, the shame is not based on the reactions of non-family members and her children have frequently absolved her.  The youngest siblings have said that they just thought they spent a lot of time camping and the older siblings all talk fondly of the &#8220;adventurous&#8221; aspects of their childhoods.</p>
<p>The shame she felt was internal, an organic response and acknowledgeable that she was human and owned her own mistakes.  It was part and parcel to the person that she is and I hope that I inherited some of it from her.</p>
<p>Of course I don&#8217;t rejoice in in the fact that you or Tracy cried when asking for help.  I respect you for that response. In the same also I am disappointed when one takes what is offered shamelessly and with a sentiment of entitlement.</p>
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		<title>By: sol</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65093</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sol]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65093</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In judging others&#039; situations we often forget we are capable of seeing only a very small portion of their lives. We tell ourselves that other people have the same opportunities as us and, therefore, their situation is of their own making. This reasoning is faulty in that does not account for the tremendous subjectivity of opportunity. Even seeing the possibility of a decent job, a college education, a dad who doesn&#039;t abandon his kids, a life without welfare, and many other life choices/situations is a &lt;em&gt;privilege&lt;/em&gt;. If we see these things as attainable or even possible we are privileged. Those of us who grew up with three square meals and a warm bed are privileged. Those of us who grew up without these privileges and still found a way to a better life are privileged.

Before we count someone as having the same opportunity we should look at what they have known and what they have been taught and what they have experienced. If we could know a person on that level I doubt we would be so cavalier in our judgments. Are we not grateful the Lord mercifully considers our very unique experience in judging us?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In judging others&#8217; situations we often forget we are capable of seeing only a very small portion of their lives. We tell ourselves that other people have the same opportunities as us and, therefore, their situation is of their own making. This reasoning is faulty in that does not account for the tremendous subjectivity of opportunity. Even seeing the possibility of a decent job, a college education, a dad who doesn&#8217;t abandon his kids, a life without welfare, and many other life choices/situations is a <em>privilege</em>. If we see these things as attainable or even possible we are privileged. Those of us who grew up with three square meals and a warm bed are privileged. Those of us who grew up without these privileges and still found a way to a better life are privileged.</p>
<p>Before we count someone as having the same opportunity we should look at what they have known and what they have been taught and what they have experienced. If we could know a person on that level I doubt we would be so cavalier in our judgments. Are we not grateful the Lord mercifully considers our very unique experience in judging us?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Rasmussen</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65092</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt Rasmussen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65092</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;And that you don’t ever read BCC during work hours...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Indeed, we are all beggars.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>And that you don’t ever read BCC during work hours&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed, we are all beggars.</p>
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		<title>By: Jami</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65091</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jami]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:57:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65091</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well MAC, I got a good night&#039;s sleep and reread your comment #38 and it&#039;s every bit as pompous, insulting and asinine this morning as it was last night.

The answer to your other question is that the shame I&#039;ve felt in receiving assistance has been almost entirely due to knowing that people are judging me.

No, I would not go waving my WIC vouchers around gleefully. I would, however, turn to anyone who came behind me in line and say, &quot;This is going to take a lot longer than it looks like.  It&#039;s WIC. You might want to choose a different line.&quot;

Humiliation is not humility. Jesus did not humiliate those who he served, but almost all were humbled by his loving, healing grace.

Contrition is absolutely not required for having to receive help. Contrition for being laid off? For having a spouse die? For staying at home with children while they are young? For being poor and doing what is necessary to get good food for the family? Contrition?

Does it make you feel better to know that Tracy cried at the WIC office.  Does it make you feel better to know that I cried last night reading the heartless judgement of some of the commenters here? That I&#039;ve cried every time I&#039;ve had to ask for assistance?

You are absolutely right about one thing though: people who ought to be feeling shame in this situation are not. Shame on you, MAC.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well MAC, I got a good night&#8217;s sleep and reread your comment #38 and it&#8217;s every bit as pompous, insulting and asinine this morning as it was last night.</p>
<p>The answer to your other question is that the shame I&#8217;ve felt in receiving assistance has been almost entirely due to knowing that people are judging me.</p>
<p>No, I would not go waving my WIC vouchers around gleefully. I would, however, turn to anyone who came behind me in line and say, &#8220;This is going to take a lot longer than it looks like.  It&#8217;s WIC. You might want to choose a different line.&#8221;</p>
<p>Humiliation is not humility. Jesus did not humiliate those who he served, but almost all were humbled by his loving, healing grace.</p>
<p>Contrition is absolutely not required for having to receive help. Contrition for being laid off? For having a spouse die? For staying at home with children while they are young? For being poor and doing what is necessary to get good food for the family? Contrition?</p>
<p>Does it make you feel better to know that Tracy cried at the WIC office.  Does it make you feel better to know that I cried last night reading the heartless judgement of some of the commenters here? That I&#8217;ve cried every time I&#8217;ve had to ask for assistance?</p>
<p>You are absolutely right about one thing though: people who ought to be feeling shame in this situation are not. Shame on you, MAC.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter LLC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65090</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter LLC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[erratum: &quot;I &lt;strong&gt;say &lt;/strong&gt;go get what is yours&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>erratum: &#8220;I <strong>say </strong>go get what is yours&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Peter LLC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65089</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter LLC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65089</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JimD,

It&#039;s too easy to beat yourself up--all of us could have been higher achievers, more careful planners, wiser investrs, born in richer countries...

The notion that taxpayers should feel ashamed for availing themselves of tax-funded programs created to assist them (&lt;em&gt;if&lt;/em&gt; they qualify) is baffling. Government aid is hardly low-hanging fruit for the unmotivated--Medicaid, for example, is careful to point out that poverty alone is not necessarily sufficient to qualify:

&lt;blockquote&gt;the Medicaid program does not provide health care services, even for very poor persons, unless they are in one of the designated eligibility groups.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In the rough and tumble frontier that is the US safety net, I go get what is yours. I know you condemn this attitude, but that&#039;s probably just because you are an American. In other parts of the world, state social insurance is mandatory and the only options you have are to be sensible and take advantage of it, don&#039;t take advantage of it and go untreated, or pay for additional private insurance, which still doesn&#039;t let you off the hook for what you owe to the Man.

I too worked at a grocery store as an undergrad (full disclosure--my employer paid for my health insurance) and I saw plenty of WIC/foodstamp recipients come through the line, and often enough they would use money they didn&#039;t have to spend on cheerios and apple juice to pay for their vice of choice. And it didn&#039;t bother me--I&#039;d rather that all mommies and babies and even daddies get enough to eat even if it means an indirect Word of Wisdom violation subsidy. Besides, buying beer in bulk drops the unit price, which is surely good economics. 8)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JimD,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s too easy to beat yourself up&#8211;all of us could have been higher achievers, more careful planners, wiser investrs, born in richer countries&#8230;</p>
<p>The notion that taxpayers should feel ashamed for availing themselves of tax-funded programs created to assist them (<em>if</em> they qualify) is baffling. Government aid is hardly low-hanging fruit for the unmotivated&#8211;Medicaid, for example, is careful to point out that poverty alone is not necessarily sufficient to qualify:</p>
<blockquote><p>the Medicaid program does not provide health care services, even for very poor persons, unless they are in one of the designated eligibility groups.</p></blockquote>
<p>In the rough and tumble frontier that is the US safety net, I go get what is yours. I know you condemn this attitude, but that&#8217;s probably just because you are an American. In other parts of the world, state social insurance is mandatory and the only options you have are to be sensible and take advantage of it, don&#8217;t take advantage of it and go untreated, or pay for additional private insurance, which still doesn&#8217;t let you off the hook for what you owe to the Man.</p>
<p>I too worked at a grocery store as an undergrad (full disclosure&#8211;my employer paid for my health insurance) and I saw plenty of WIC/foodstamp recipients come through the line, and often enough they would use money they didn&#8217;t have to spend on cheerios and apple juice to pay for their vice of choice. And it didn&#8217;t bother me&#8211;I&#8217;d rather that all mommies and babies and even daddies get enough to eat even if it means an indirect Word of Wisdom violation subsidy. Besides, buying beer in bulk drops the unit price, which is surely good economics. 8)</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/29/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65088</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 05:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/of-potatoes-and-prayers/#comment-65088</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I really think everyone should be required to be destitute for a month or so. People wouldn’t have to dig quite so deep for compassion after their stint.&quot;

Amen, Jami.  Amen.  I&#039;ve had to receive assistance from the Church more than once in my life; it certainly changed my perspective.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I really think everyone should be required to be destitute for a month or so. People wouldn’t have to dig quite so deep for compassion after their stint.&#8221;</p>
<p>Amen, Jami.  Amen.  I&#8217;ve had to receive assistance from the Church more than once in my life; it certainly changed my perspective.</p>
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