By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

65 Responses to “Your Friday Firestorm #48”

1. Lester Dent Says:
   May 23, 2008 at 9:15 am

   Sounds good in theory, but in practice–not sure about the application.

   I’d prefer this:

   What is your name?
   What is your quest?
   What is your favourite colour?
   What is the average air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
2. Kari Says:
   May 23, 2008 at 9:16 am

   African or European?
3. mpb Says:
   May 23, 2008 at 9:17 am

   The Zuckers have some pretty good movies to their name (and some real duds too).
4. Peter LLC Says:
   May 23, 2008 at 9:31 am

   Hmm…I’m skeptical of scripture claiming to be modern revelation but which provides no guidance on how to tell when a Facebook friend request is legit or not.
5. Lester Dent Says:
   May 23, 2008 at 9:32 am

   So a Just Man has no sense of humor, no pointing at a spot on the tie just to tweak someone’s nose with a “gotcha” before delivering the message?

   What about Gideon’s angel who tweaks him with the greeting “mighty man of Israel” as Gideon is threshing wheat inside to avoid detection by Israel’s enemies?

   Is Mark Twain right that there is no humor in heaven?
6. Jami Says:
   May 23, 2008 at 9:35 am

   I’m thinking the devil might be on to this by now. Either he’s going to not move a la JMMP or he is under some sort of Imperius Curse, forced to give himself away against his will.

   And if the personage is a human with a good special effects team or a product of a deranged mind, I have no idea how you could discern his nature. Oh wait! You could listen to his message.

   Is he telling you to pile all of your furniture in the middle of your home and set fire to it because you are becoming too attached to the world? Probably insanity. Run it past a trusted friend.

   Is he telling you to rob a bank and place the ill-gotten gains in a Swiss bank account? Probably a con artist. Just run.
7. Jami Says:
   May 23, 2008 at 9:39 am

   Oh and the swallow question (1) has some interesting answers. http://www.armory.com/swallow.html
8. peetie Says:
   May 23, 2008 at 9:41 am

   Does the passage have any roots in masonic ritual, or is it just magic combining with common sense?
9. snow white Says:
   May 23, 2008 at 9:46 am

   I just want to know why we don’t have the You Decide posts anymore. I loved those.
   As far as the actual post topic, I think I’d be pretty freaked out regardless of the type of unworldly visitor it was. I’m sure in actuality I’d have nowhere near the presence of mind to ask it to shake hands. However, I always found this scripture reassuring as a child.
10. Lester Dent Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 9:50 am

    I correct myself–the angel called Gideon “mighty man of valor”. And he was threshing behind the winepress to hide from Midianites, to be specific.

    Actually, reminds me of a game where you take a hymn title and tack on at the end: “behind the shed”.
11. Kari Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 9:53 am

    What if you’re so freaked out you try to tackle the aforementioned messenger? Devil or “just man made perfect” your going to pass right through. Or would you stop, and just not feel anything? And then what? Still ask him to shake hands?
12. Kari Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 9:53 am

    Oh yeah,

    How come there is no mention of a just woman made perfect?
13. CE Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 9:54 am

    Serious question:

    Am I correct in assuming that Sections 129 – 131 were added to the D&C quite late, after Joseph’s death? How can I find this out?

    Sections 129 – 131 contain “items of instruction” given to individuals in 1843. To me, they seem qualitatively different from the “thus saith the Lord” revelations earlier in the D&C. These seem to be one-off statements made around an evening fire — possibly not intended for public consumption. Like the King Follett discourse and other late doctrinal innovations, it seems like these sections may not contain complete ideas. We have some insight into Joseph’s revelatory process, but don’t seem to have the fully-developed result.

    I’m open to the idea that the “handshake test” is a kind of whimsical statement, sort of how I view the Zelph story.
14. Steve Evans Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 9:58 am

    Unfortunately every single person in the world with the ability to answer these questions is in a Sacramento seminar room (or passed out drunk under a table). If we could drop a bomb on Sacramento it would A) beautify California and B) rid us of Mormon historians, forever.
15. CE Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 10:09 am

    They are undoubtedly all following BCC on their Blackberries during the seminars (especially the drunks under the tables).
16. dug Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 10:09 am

    This has to be the least helpful advice in the history of advice. That may be overstating the case a bit, but not much.

    I pretty rarely need help indentifying Satan and his evil angels when they appear to me in person. I could use more help motivating myself to do my hometeaching.

    Maybe this would be more helpful if I knew of ONE case where someone used these steps effectively. Or even ineffectively.

    Although, I wonder what happens next? That is, what do you say to Satan once you’ve busted him?

    “Hey, you’re not a real angel, you’re SATAN!” Now what?
17. Jami Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 10:13 am

    (14) Hey! Watch it, buddy. Just remember we’re two short hours from some world class places. You need our freeways to get there.
18. MikeInWeHo Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 10:16 am

    The devil would have to be really dumb to let himself be detected so easily. My sense was always that the devil is much more clever than this verse would seem to indicate. Would he necessarily even appear as a male at all? For that matter, what about female demons?
19. Ronan Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 10:46 am

    This stuff is undeniably crazy, but I’d mourn a Mormonism without it.
20. Norbert Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 11:22 am

    There’s something so midwest life insurance salesman about this.
21. FHL Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 11:27 am

    I’m a little confused on the “spirit of a just man made perfect” – would this be someone who is somewhere between death and resurrection? Would this be all just men who’ve died since Jesus’s resurrection?
22. StillConfused Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 11:31 am

    Holy crap — that is what I would do if any of these characters visited me.
23. Clark Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 11:35 am

    Why wouldn’t the devil know about this scripture and catch a clue?
24. Clark Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 11:36 am

    CE (#13), I think that’s a good point and a bigger issue is that the sources were very fragmentary and largely divorced from context. One wishes one could have a transcript of the discussion in which they originated.
25. BobW Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 12:26 pm

    I had a terrible experience with this scripture. I was subbing in the Gospel Doctrine and mentioned all of the above. Besides pointing out the absurdity that here I am standing in the middle of a room with the glorious being in front of me. I stop and say, -Wait, before this interview goes any farther, I have to shake your hand!-

    I am enough of an engineer to know that is an example of a clever solution with no practical application. I mean if you can’t tell by the smell of brimstone, you must be really dense.

    My audience became enraged. Do not try this at home.

    Oh, the next sections are about -the Glory of God is intelligence-. So I started the lesson by saying that the subject matter ranged from the sublime to the ridiculous. I guess I deserved every bit of what I got.
26. spencer Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    I imagine that this is similar to what we see in the temple movie when Peter introduces his real self to Adam. I’m going that route if I ever have to identify unknown otherworldly beings.
27. Matt Thurston Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    In the history of Mormonism, has this advice ever been employed or tested? And by “history,” I’m not limiting the scope to accepted LDS history, but widening the scope to include folklore, hearsay, and early Saints’ personal journals.

    BTW, glad to see this passage finally made the Friday Firestorm. D&C 129:4-9 has always had my vote as the nuttiest passage in the Mormon canon.
28. amri Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    I like it cuz it’s so direct. None of this, study it out in your mind, listen to the Spirit, decipher what it’s saying and then choose what is best taxing, time-consuming process. It’s just stick out your hand and offer a shake and by golly if I am ever confronted with a possible devil, I’ll know what to do. Cuz there’s no time to be like, um can you hold on to see if I get a burning in my bosom? Yeah, uh hold on. Okay, thanks.
29. anothernonymous Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    There is a nice footnote in the Words of Joseph Smith by Ehat and Cook that elaborates on this issue – it appears Joseph taught these keys as early as 1839 and the gist of the footnote states that it is the character of a false spirit to “not stand still” – in other words if it is a spirit messenger from God, it will occur as related in the scripture but if it is a false spirit, it will do anything else except remain still when delivering the message. I’ll pull the quote when I have access at home if someone doesn’t beat me to the punch.
30. dug Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 1:18 pm

    Is no one else reminded of when Metatron (Alan Rickman) appears in a pillar of fire to Bethany Sloane (Linda Fiorentino), the last scion, and she immediately soaks him with a fire extinguisher?

    I think it should work like that.
31. Cynthia Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 1:22 pm

    I believe (just my opinion) that Joseph put this instruction in because he had been royally fooled by the “angel of light” which promulgated polygamy….a doctrine which almost destroyed the church in his day, and continues to harm the church in our day….let alone the women and children brainwashed into it.

    No true ANGEL ever threatens to kill you with a mythical sword if you don’t do what they say. True angels always say, “Fear not”…., don’t they?
32. CE Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 1:29 pm

    It’s interesting to contrast Section 129 to Section 50, which gives a different perspective on how to tell between true and false spirits. In summary, Section 50 says that a true manifestation from God will come by the “spirit of truth” and edify both the giver and receiver, so that both will understand each other.

    It sounds like Section 50 addresses situations where a living person tells you they had a vision or revelation from God, whereas Section 129 addresses situations where some immortal being visits you.
33. Jami Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 1:58 pm

    31. The angel guarding the tree of life holds a sword, doesn’t she? Not that I’ve chatted with her or anything.
34. Steve Evans Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    #31: “I believe (just my opinion)…”

    Indeed.
35. Boring Mogget Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 2:01 pm

    First, put me down in Ronan’s camp. Secon, FHL wants to know about:

    …spirits of just men made perfect…

    This expression is also found in Heb 12:23, but you might consider the following as a better translation:

    …and the spirits of the righteous made complete…

    To be “made complete” is to receive all that God has promised. In Hebrews, these folks are one in a list of those who inhabit the heavenly Jerusalem:

    22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 25 See that you do not refuse the one who is speaking; for if they did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we reject the one who warns from heaven!

    God’s city is the place where where his promises come to their culmination.

    Dunno what JS made of this, though.

    Except for my comment, this thread is pretty good.
36. mpb Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    I nearly forgot–does anyone remember the “Ghost Phone” Mormonad?
37. Steve Evans Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    +5 points to mpb. good one.
38. amri Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    what the heck does that mormonad mean?
39. Ardis Parshall Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    Whether you admit it or not, this is exactly the kind of wow!-but-useless kind of thing you have in mind when you speculate how wonderful it was in Joseph’s day to hear new revelation constantly, and that you mourn not hearing in your lifetime — you know it, and you know who you are.
40. Steve Evans Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    Precisely right, Ardis.
41. Ardis Parshall Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    And Kevin isn’t passed out drunk under any table. He was dancing on TOP of the table, last I saw.
42. BobW Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    So, tell me, when would an unembodied &#34just man (woman) made perfect&#34 be sent as a messenger when a resurrected and perfected man (woman) would do as well. Then he or she could shake hands. Would they, knowing this scripture?

    Anyway, who among us is important enough that the still small voice can not suffice? I am certainly not.

    Apparently there are among us people who have visions. I have known a few. Apparently there are those among us who have seen and experienced Jesus and even Heavenly Mother. These are (or were) highly placed people in the hierarchy. I am sure that the instructions were NOT followed in these cases.
43. Ivan Wolfe Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 4:50 pm

    Why wouldn’t the devil know about this scripture and catch a clue?

    The answer can be found in the original Battlestar Galactica.

    Think about it. What happened when Count Iblis broke a rule laid down by God? The angels in the ships of Light directly intervened. So, therefore, if a Devil tries to deceive on the handshake test, the ships of light will intervene and cause that devil to go poof.

    (Actually, I’m half serious. I’m betting there’s some Celestial rule dealing with handshakes that even the devil and his minions can’t break. My guess is that if they tried to, some serious hosts of heaven would intervene or something).
44. Jeremy Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 5:09 pm

    That passage of scripture reminds me of the Land Shark.
45. Tony Brown Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 5:22 pm

    I always viewed the devil’s apparent stupidity as evidence of his desire to decieve. He wants to trick us into thinking he is something he is not.

    As far as being important enough for a message from an angel, I personally believe each person is important enough to recieve an angel irrespective of their calling in the church. The thing is that not all messages are important enough to send an angel to deliver, especially when the Holy Ghost can effectively deliver the message.
46. Jami Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 5:28 pm

    I tell you it the Imperius Curse. He’s got to. He can’t help himself.
47. Mark IV Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 5:49 pm

    The answer can be found in the original Battlestar Galactica.

    Ivan, I imagine there are many questions to which this is an appropriate response.
48. Latter-day Guy Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    @16, if the New Testament is any indication, I guess you flee naked.
49. anothernonymous Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 8:17 pm

    Here’s the citation from Words of Joseph Smith I promised in #29 above.

    27 June 1839 (Thursday). 1 Commerce, Hancock County, Illinois

    Wilford Woodruff Diary
    Among the vast number of the Keys of the Kingdom of God Joseph presented the following one to the Twelve for there benefit in there experience & travels in the flesh which is as follows. In order to detect the devel when he transforms himself nigh unto an angel of light. When an angel of God appears unto man face to face in personage & reaches out his hand unto the man & he takes hold of the angels hand & feels a substance the Same as one man would in shaking hands with another he may then know that it is an angel of God, & he should place all Confidence in him Such personages or angels are Saints with there resurrected Bodies, but if a personage appears unto man & offers him his hand & the man takes hold of it & he feels nothing or does not sens any substance he may know it is the devel, for when a Saint whose body is not resurrected appears unto man in the flesh he will not offer him his hand for this is against the law given him & in keeping in mind these things we may detec the devil that he decieved us not. 21

    21 The morning after the visitations from the angel Moroni (21-22 September 1823), Joseph Smith went to the side of the hill Cumorah to unearth the plates he had seen in his vision. As he later told Oliver Cowdery, on the road to Cumorah he became fixed and determined to obtain the plates for wealth and prestige and not for the glory of God. Only after attempting unsuccessfully three times to remove the plates from the stone box in which they were enclosed did he become aware that Moroni was present. The angel indicated that he was permitted by God to be led by this evil spirit so that from that time forth he would always know the difference between a true spirit and an evil spirit. This was only a beginning of his instructions in the gift of discerning spirits (D&C 46:15-16, 23, 27). Subsequent revelations through Joseph Smith gave greater detail concerning keys to detecting the adversary. D&C 50:30-35 gave instructions that if after prayer a spirit would not manifest itself, the individuals involved would have power to rebuke the spirit. Joseph Smith had experience himself with this type of manifestation. On the banks of the Susquehanna River, Michael appeared to intervene and detect the devil when he appeared as an angel of light (D&C 128:20), indicating another dimension to this question of detection. Because the adversary apparently can take light and truth away from the disobedient (D&C 93:39), he can attempt to pass as an angel of glory (2 Corinthians 11:14; D&C 129:8; Moses 1:2, 9, 11-25). As indicated in this discourse, Joseph Smith therefore revealed additional keys of detection. Far from saying that when the instructions of this discourse were followed, the adversary’s only recourse was to attempt to return the handshake, in a December 1840 discourse Joseph says, “The Devil…will either shrink back…or offer his hand.” He will not remain absolutely still if he is tested. On 28 April 1842, the Prophet revealed to the Relief Society, and on 1 May 1842 to the Nauvoo populace, that there was another dimension for determining whether manifestations and revelations were approved by God. There were “keys of the kingdom,” he said to a Sunday audience of the saints in the Grove, “certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed…. There are signs…the Elders must know…to be endowed with the power, to finish their work and prevent imposition” (1 May 1842 discourse). Three days later Joseph Smith revealed these sacred keys to nine men—in accordance with his plans as announced to the Relief Society just six days before (28 April 1842). To these men he taught the keys of prayer and detection whereby all false documents, revelations, or manifestations could be tested (Times and Seasons 5 [15 September 1844]:649-50 and Letter of Orson Hyde, George A. Smith, and Ezra T. Benson to Brigham Young, dated 5 April 1849, Brigham Young Collection, Church Archives). They were so sacred that when Heber C. Kimball wrote to fellow apostle Parley P. Pratt just a few weeks later, he said that Joseph had taught them some precious things on the priesthood that would cause his soul to rejoice if he knew them, but that Joseph had given instructions that these keys not be written about. Heber concluded his description of the newly revealed endowment by saying that Parley would have to come to Nauvoo to receive the instruction for himself (Letter of Heber C. Kimball to Parley P. Pratt, 17 June 1842, Church Archives). Parley arrived in Nauvoo on 7 February 1843, and although the Prophet made him wait ten months before giving him his endowment (2 December 1843), after only two days he partially satisfied Parley’s curiosity by giving him the instructions contained in D&C 129—the same instructions as given in this discourse, 27 June 1839 (see also Joseph Smith Diary, 9 February 1843, Church Archives). George A. Smith, who received his endowment with Parley P. Pratt in December 1843, and who also was a witness to all the dimensions of Joseph’s teachings on this subject, later said, “There was no point upon which the Prophet Joseph dwelt more than the discerning of Spirits” (“Minutes of Meetings held in Provo City,” 28 November 1869, Church Archives). This may be true because the Prophet insisted that true religion was one of individual participation in revelation from God but that in their zeal many could be deceived.
50. CE Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 8:47 pm

    Thanks for posting that, anotheranonymous. That’s helpful context.
51. Brian Duffin Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 9:16 pm

    I have held the hand of a devil
    It was warm in the night
    I was cold as a stone
52. Ray Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 10:14 pm

    #19 – Amen.
53. queuno Says:
    May 23, 2008 at 10:20 pm

    But Brian Duffin, have you danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?
54. Randall Says:
    May 24, 2008 at 7:33 am

    Do any of us ever really find what we’re looking for?

    Is that not why we engage in blog conversations, to work through the issues with our supportive and affirmative blog brothers and sisters?
55. Karen Says:
    May 24, 2008 at 8:34 am

    Wow Cynthia! I am not able to get past polygamy if I think about it so I have gunnysacked it. Your idea does make sense to me even if Steve Evans doesn’t think so. Did I once read that the first time Joseph Smith asked about this he was told it was better not to ask? Did he “Martin Harris” the church into polygamy?
56. smb Says:
    May 24, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    Today I will offer a possible explanation for the meaning of this revelation (though in brief form) at MHA.
57. Steve Evans Says:
    May 24, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    Karen, if you want to join Cynthia in thinking that Joseph was a fallen prophet because of polygamy, go ahead — but don’t drag the rest of us with you. Polygamy is a tough issue, no doubt, but rejecting Joseph’s prophetic calling is not an answer that will keep you part of this Church for long.
58. Ann Says:
    May 24, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    Queuno, I have danced all night to the soul fairy band…does that count?
59. Tatiana Says:
    May 25, 2008 at 10:01 am

    Prophets aren’t supposed to be infallible. It doesn’t make him a fallen prophet if he makes some mistakes. I think it’s an interesting idea.
60. Jami Says:
    May 25, 2008 at 10:56 am

    59, 55 & 31: I’m with Steve on this one. Hate to invoke the slippery slope argument, but consider it invoked. Which of Joseph’s prophetic experiences would be the next to go–Word of Wisdom? Temple Worship? The First Vision?
61. snow white Says:
    May 25, 2008 at 5:14 pm

    We’re on the slippery slope to Godwin! On a year when BCC gets rickrolled, who knows what could happen.
62. JA Benson Says:
    May 25, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    Apparently the early Church in Kirtland had a problem with evil and deceptive spirits. In regards to the early accounts, these events are quite weird to us in our day. I think that Satan uses different methods on us today as he did on the early saints.

    From Richard L Bushman’s _Rough Stone Rolling_ pages 151-152
    “Containing excess was not easy when Joseph’s own revelatory powers excited the desire for spiritual gifts. Corrill reported that those visionary sprits spoken of before continued in the church, and rose to such a height that the elders became so dissatisfied with them that they determined to have something done about it. Visiting branches outside of Kirtland, Parley Pratt came across strange spiritual operations that were disgusting rather than edifying…Pratt felt that a false and lying sprit seemed to be creeping into the church. In March Joseph write to his brother Hyrum about the devil’s attempts to overthrow the disciples. The visionary spirit had become a bane.
    To disciple the ardor, a second revelation condemned the excesses and gave rules for judging the spirits… Gradually the excesses for the visionaries was checked.
63. grumpy and goofy Says:
    May 25, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    yeah and i heard something about Hitler taking the discussions and he was like totally going to repent and be baptized but then he like heard about the angel of light threatening to kill Joseph with a sword and like Hitler totally said woah, no way dudes. like there’s no way me and my nazi friends can buy this kinda garbage.
64. NOYDMB Says:
    May 26, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    Why all the animosity twoards the MHA?
65. Ray Says:
    May 26, 2008 at 3:04 pm

    #64 – ?

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