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	<title>Comments on: Commemorating the Revelation</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/08/commemorating-the-revelation/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/08/commemorating-the-revelation/#comment-65288</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 07:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3887#comment-65288</guid>
		<description>I have never had the privilege to hear a sacrament meeting talk like I can imagine this one was. Wish I was there. Perhaps one day talks as honest, intelligent, and faithful as this can become more of the norm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never had the privilege to hear a sacrament meeting talk like I can imagine this one was. Wish I was there. Perhaps one day talks as honest, intelligent, and faithful as this can become more of the norm.</p>
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		<title>By: gillsyk</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/08/commemorating-the-revelation/#comment-65287</link>
		<dc:creator>gillsyk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 05:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3887#comment-65287</guid>
		<description>I know we&#039;re done with this topic, but for the record: no mention of this in my Sac Mtg, so during a small lull, I mentioned it in Relief Society in our &#039;Good News Minute&#039;. Only then realizing how wonderfully apt that forum was. Brian #34, the relief and elation of many people was &lt;em&gt;real&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know we&#8217;re done with this topic, but for the record: no mention of this in my Sac Mtg, so during a small lull, I mentioned it in Relief Society in our &#8216;Good News Minute&#8217;. Only then realizing how wonderfully apt that forum was. Brian #34, the relief and elation of many people was <em>real</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: CS Eric</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/08/commemorating-the-revelation/#comment-65286</link>
		<dc:creator>CS Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3887#comment-65286</guid>
		<description>The other reason I learned at a young age about the controversy over blacks and the priesthood, and when, if ever, that would change is not really so noble as my outrage at an injustice.  It was this: my dad was a huge BYU basketball fan.  For a lot of the 1970&#039;s, whenever BYU would play on the road, they would get a ton of grief from local fans over the issue.  I remember seeing fans (I think it was at Wyoming) throwing garbage onto the court.  I wondered why, and asked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other reason I learned at a young age about the controversy over blacks and the priesthood, and when, if ever, that would change is not really so noble as my outrage at an injustice.  It was this: my dad was a huge BYU basketball fan.  For a lot of the 1970&#8217;s, whenever BYU would play on the road, they would get a ton of grief from local fans over the issue.  I remember seeing fans (I think it was at Wyoming) throwing garbage onto the court.  I wondered why, and asked.</p>
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		<title>By: CS Eric</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/08/commemorating-the-revelation/#comment-65285</link>
		<dc:creator>CS Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3887#comment-65285</guid>
		<description>Mark B,

It wasn&#039;t so much that I was a late bloomer (#102), as that I had a wonderful 9th grade seminary teacher who talked about the issue frankly and openly.  He recounted the story to us of a newspaper reporter who asked Pres McKay when the blacks would receive the priesthood.  Pres McKay reportedly answered him that it wasn&#039;t going to happen in his(Pres McKay&#039;s) lifetime.

We also had a family friend who was one of Pres McKay&#039;s bodyguards.  He would tell us stories of the Prophet all the time. Even as a young boy I remembered those things.  Don&#039;t you remember stories you were told as a boy?

Also, my memories of what Pres McKay said don&#039;t have to be what I remember him saying at the time he said them.  It may surprise you, but I also remember the day JFK was shot, and I have a clear recollection of watching Jack Ruby jumping out of the crowd and shooting Lee Harvey Oswald.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark B,</p>
<p>It wasn&#8217;t so much that I was a late bloomer (#102), as that I had a wonderful 9th grade seminary teacher who talked about the issue frankly and openly.  He recounted the story to us of a newspaper reporter who asked Pres McKay when the blacks would receive the priesthood.  Pres McKay reportedly answered him that it wasn&#8217;t going to happen in his(Pres McKay&#8217;s) lifetime.</p>
<p>We also had a family friend who was one of Pres McKay&#8217;s bodyguards.  He would tell us stories of the Prophet all the time. Even as a young boy I remembered those things.  Don&#8217;t you remember stories you were told as a boy?</p>
<p>Also, my memories of what Pres McKay said don&#8217;t have to be what I remember him saying at the time he said them.  It may surprise you, but I also remember the day JFK was shot, and I have a clear recollection of watching Jack Ruby jumping out of the crowd and shooting Lee Harvey Oswald.</p>
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		<title>By: CE</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/08/commemorating-the-revelation/#comment-65284</link>
		<dc:creator>CE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 21:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3887#comment-65284</guid>
		<description>Sister Blah 2 (#39) --

Belated thanks for your suggestion.  You make a good point.  For my lesson, I&#039;ll be sure not to hold up &quot;white&quot; (or pastey-pinkish-white in my family&#039;s case) as the normal color.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sister Blah 2 (#39) &#8211;</p>
<p>Belated thanks for your suggestion.  You make a good point.  For my lesson, I&#8217;ll be sure not to hold up &#8220;white&#8221; (or pastey-pinkish-white in my family&#8217;s case) as the normal color.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/08/commemorating-the-revelation/#comment-65283</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3887#comment-65283</guid>
		<description>Matt, you are a good friend.

SC, you make a good point.  For Joseph, it was the &quot;endowment of power.&quot;  A bestowal a spiritual power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, you are a good friend.</p>
<p>SC, you make a good point.  For Joseph, it was the &#8220;endowment of power.&#8221;  A bestowal a spiritual power.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Jacobsen</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/08/commemorating-the-revelation/#comment-65282</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Jacobsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3887#comment-65282</guid>
		<description>I was at the meeting and J. did a great job giving this talk.  He had the right combination of grief, admonition, and gratitude that this topic requires.  The topic of the meeting was that god loves all his children and the other talks were good but not about the ban.

Then later that day I got to attend a temple prep class also taught by J.  I am loving my ward right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was at the meeting and J. did a great job giving this talk.  He had the right combination of grief, admonition, and gratitude that this topic requires.  The topic of the meeting was that god loves all his children and the other talks were good but not about the ban.</p>
<p>Then later that day I got to attend a temple prep class also taught by J.  I am loving my ward right now.</p>
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		<title>By: SC Taysom</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/08/commemorating-the-revelation/#comment-65281</link>
		<dc:creator>SC Taysom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3887#comment-65281</guid>
		<description>re: 77, 84. This argument misses at least part of the point. The temple is not just about exaltation, it is also about providing spiritual knowledge and power that help us navigate the waters of mortality. Very few of us who have been to the3\ temple and participated in the potentially exalting ordinances performed there will ever know with certainty if those ordinances have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise until we have died. What we do know however, and what those of African descent could not know in the pre-1978 Church, is the sense of having been invited, in this world, to enter into a family and community order of being where we are not only offered ordinances, but also are given important teachings that help us find peace in this life, as well as eternal life in the hereafter. I have to say that it is cold comfort indeed to offer to persons excluded from those teachings  and that spiritual assistance--for no other reason than the color of their skin--a sop about things being made right in the hereafter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: 77, 84. This argument misses at least part of the point. The temple is not just about exaltation, it is also about providing spiritual knowledge and power that help us navigate the waters of mortality. Very few of us who have been to the3\ temple and participated in the potentially exalting ordinances performed there will ever know with certainty if those ordinances have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise until we have died. What we do know however, and what those of African descent could not know in the pre-1978 Church, is the sense of having been invited, in this world, to enter into a family and community order of being where we are not only offered ordinances, but also are given important teachings that help us find peace in this life, as well as eternal life in the hereafter. I have to say that it is cold comfort indeed to offer to persons excluded from those teachings  and that spiritual assistance&#8211;for no other reason than the color of their skin&#8211;a sop about things being made right in the hereafter.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Brown</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/08/commemorating-the-revelation/#comment-65280</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3887#comment-65280</guid>
		<description>A couple commenters seem to suggest that &quot;racism&quot; was the causal factor behind the Priesthood Ban.  If you&#039;re going to reject the idea that God was the author of the Ban (and I personally DO reject that idea), it doesn&#039;t follow that &quot;racism&quot; is the primary cause, or the only causal factor worth talking about.

To clarify, I do believe that 19th Century &quot;racist&quot; ideas were the original &quot;cause&quot; of the Ban in some strong sense (See Brigham Young), and I do think the racism of subsequent church members and leaders may have helped perpetuate the ban for as long as it lasted, and I certainly think it helped churchmembers find certain racist rationales for the Ban acceptable and believable.  But I think the real culprit here is our collective misguided attachment to theological precedent.  Brigham Young taught what he taught very stridently.  Subsequent church leaders took what he said very seriously, Young being a prophet and all.  Later leaders could look back on what was becoming a lengthy history of unanimous acceptance of and adherence to the Ban on the part of their forebearers.  And I suspect more modern churchmembers and leaders, seeing this history (to the extent they know it) and being loathe to confront the possibility that such an entrenched idea/practice could have been ill-conceived from the start, felt ideologically compelled to support it and rationalize, despite their own relative lack of racist sentiment.

In short, I think a frank discussion of the Priesthood Ban is as much an opportunity to discuss unfortunate attachments to theological precedent and &quot;doctrinal&quot; continuity as it is to discuss Mormon racism.

AB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple commenters seem to suggest that &#8220;racism&#8221; was the causal factor behind the Priesthood Ban.  If you&#8217;re going to reject the idea that God was the author of the Ban (and I personally DO reject that idea), it doesn&#8217;t follow that &#8220;racism&#8221; is the primary cause, or the only causal factor worth talking about.</p>
<p>To clarify, I do believe that 19th Century &#8220;racist&#8221; ideas were the original &#8220;cause&#8221; of the Ban in some strong sense (See Brigham Young), and I do think the racism of subsequent church members and leaders may have helped perpetuate the ban for as long as it lasted, and I certainly think it helped churchmembers find certain racist rationales for the Ban acceptable and believable.  But I think the real culprit here is our collective misguided attachment to theological precedent.  Brigham Young taught what he taught very stridently.  Subsequent church leaders took what he said very seriously, Young being a prophet and all.  Later leaders could look back on what was becoming a lengthy history of unanimous acceptance of and adherence to the Ban on the part of their forebearers.  And I suspect more modern churchmembers and leaders, seeing this history (to the extent they know it) and being loathe to confront the possibility that such an entrenched idea/practice could have been ill-conceived from the start, felt ideologically compelled to support it and rationalize, despite their own relative lack of racist sentiment.</p>
<p>In short, I think a frank discussion of the Priesthood Ban is as much an opportunity to discuss unfortunate attachments to theological precedent and &#8220;doctrinal&#8221; continuity as it is to discuss Mormon racism.</p>
<p>AB</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Brown</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/08/commemorating-the-revelation/#comment-65279</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3887#comment-65279</guid>
		<description>J., I wish I had been there to hear your talk.  And unlike most here, I actually could have been, as it would have been a short drive.  Sigh.

AB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J., I wish I had been there to hear your talk.  And unlike most here, I actually could have been, as it would have been a short drive.  Sigh.</p>
<p>AB</p>
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