Comments on: Testing God

By: chas

chas — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:16:48 +0000

10 and 12
So what do we then do with all those full tith payers who file for bankruptcy, or who lose their house to foreclosure…?

By: Steve Evans

Steve Evans — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:28:57 +0000

Researcher, you’re reading too much into it! It was a compliment. Naptime for all.

By: Researcher

Researcher — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:32:01 +0000

Oh my goodness. I’m just getting back to this post and I’m wondering if Steve Evans’ comment in 12 is a compliment or a subtle jab involving the themes of sacrifice as developed throughout this conversation. Am I reading too much into it? Should I go take a nap?

By: Joshua Madson

Joshua Madson — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:05:41 +0000

Ray,

I am certainly doing Girard’s idea no justice. But it seems that “God” or what people held to be God or the Gods were felt to have commanded human sacrifice. It was very common.

What is unique about Abraham’s story is that as far as I understand it is the only story in world history of a man/culture moving away from human sacrifice. And the reason seems to be that God does not want it.

By: Ray

Ray — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:13:32 +0000

So, God commanded the sacrifice because it was a common assumption of the culture in which Abraham had been raised (and, therefore, part of Abraham’s “religious baggage”) that such things were pleasing to the gods (and perhaps as a test of Abraham’s real conviction within his current paradigm), but He stopped it before it happened to show that the assumption was wrong – that such things had no place within the proper understanding of His nature that Abraham was being called to understand as the new Patriarch of God’s chosen people?

I’ll have to think about that some more, but my initial reaction is very positive.

By: Joshua Madson

Joshua Madson — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 05:56:17 +0000

I think the idea of Abraham testing God is both provocative and also dangerous from the sacrificer and sacrificee’s perspective. It seems to me that much of human sacrifice is testing God. Human sacrifice is done to gain some reward, some positive change whether it be a stable community, or some material blessing. In a sense this is all a test to see whether God will come through. I have no doubt, however, that a culture, in the event of a failed test, would likely see the failure in an improper sacrifice rather than God’s failing.

What makes a sacrifice to Elohim and better than one commanded by Baal? If a person truly believes that God commanded them is the difference simply a matter of who is actually real and has power? That difference would tell us nothing of the morality of what is being demanded.

I have been very intrigued by Rene Girard’s assertion that the Abraham story is a mythic story which shows us one man and culture’s break with the violent human sacrifice of their day. It is the showing that God does not require human sacrifice.

Interesting quotes. I will need to read the book.

By: TonyD

TonyD — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 03:49:57 +0000

The tests may be proffered by God — not the other way around. Omniscience is very hard understand from a “common sense” perspective. It is as though there is no future, no past, and no present. Even more baffling — it is as though there is no self except as defined through omnipotent will — and that self does not correspond to your consciousness. Trying to redefine God from an Apologist perspective just makes it harder to handle any real interaction with Him when the time comes. My advice is to simply acknowledge immense ignorance and incompetence — rather than look for rational explanations to things which have none in the context of this existence.

By: M

Sat, 21 Jun 2008 03:35:48 +0000

What happens if one is testing God and He does not stop the descent of the knife? What if one expects God to intervene at some point, but He never does? What does this say about us? And what does this say about God?

What is it that makes God intervene in certain situations with certain people? But at other times and with other people in dire circumstances, why does God hold back his hand? Some people seem equally sincere and equally well-intentioned, but it sometimes seems like God is a respecter of persons.

Any thoughts?

By: Steve Evans

Steve Evans — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 02:53:35 +0000

Researcher nailed it.

By: Researcher

Researcher — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 01:16:29 +0000

About #10: The reason why I used a different version of the Bible was because the word “prove” as used throughout the KJV instead of “test” is a little foreign to us. If you search on the word “prove” in the lds.org sriptures, it shows 61 instances. If not a common concept, at least not an obscure one.

Here’s one that might work with the point you are trying to make:

When your fathers tested Me, They tried Me, though they had seen My work. (Ps 95:9 also New Am Standard)