<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Education and Class</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 17:33:30 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: ESO</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/#comment-82728</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ESO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 19:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3960#comment-82728</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think most people get callings because someone knows them.  If the SP is a lawyer, for example, is it terribly surprising that most of the bishops he installs will be lawyers who he has known in other wards?

I also think Americans need to be mighty careful with the &quot;what do you do?&quot; stuff. Americans attribute much of interest, temperament, and intelligence to a choice of profession.  In most of the world, though, it is simply a matter of opportunity.  We are so blessed to make what we wish of our lives, for the most part.

Also, I really think it a shame that people go into certain professions for the expressed purpose of &quot;providing&quot; for their family.  While that is a fine goal, if that profession will in actuality, require you to work 80-100 hours per week while you have small children so you, in essence, miss their childhood only to be comfortable when they are teens and beyond, is it worth it?  It certainly would not be to me, barring divine guidance to become a doctor.

I was in one branch which seemed to exist in some sort of Mormon bizarro world.  I, a lowly teacher with a master&#039;s degree, was the second most educated person in the branch (one woman was a professor) and most of the adults had not completed college.  There was a distinct anti-intellectual bent to every discussion there, as if we were a model some conservative talk show host had put together: constant discussion of liberal professionals, the lefty middle class (although there was quite a bit of wealth in some of these families), and the dangerous pride that comes from knowing too much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think most people get callings because someone knows them.  If the SP is a lawyer, for example, is it terribly surprising that most of the bishops he installs will be lawyers who he has known in other wards?</p>
<p>I also think Americans need to be mighty careful with the &#8220;what do you do?&#8221; stuff. Americans attribute much of interest, temperament, and intelligence to a choice of profession.  In most of the world, though, it is simply a matter of opportunity.  We are so blessed to make what we wish of our lives, for the most part.</p>
<p>Also, I really think it a shame that people go into certain professions for the expressed purpose of &#8220;providing&#8221; for their family.  While that is a fine goal, if that profession will in actuality, require you to work 80-100 hours per week while you have small children so you, in essence, miss their childhood only to be comfortable when they are teens and beyond, is it worth it?  It certainly would not be to me, barring divine guidance to become a doctor.</p>
<p>I was in one branch which seemed to exist in some sort of Mormon bizarro world.  I, a lowly teacher with a master&#8217;s degree, was the second most educated person in the branch (one woman was a professor) and most of the adults had not completed college.  There was a distinct anti-intellectual bent to every discussion there, as if we were a model some conservative talk show host had put together: constant discussion of liberal professionals, the lefty middle class (although there was quite a bit of wealth in some of these families), and the dangerous pride that comes from knowing too much.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/#comment-82727</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3960#comment-82727</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s a great comment, Ray.

I wonder if we&#039;re brave enough to believe that the same may apply to BRM--that with all that may have been wrong with some of his ideas, he was the right man for the job.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a great comment, Ray.</p>
<p>I wonder if we&#8217;re brave enough to believe that the same may apply to BRM&#8211;that with all that may have been wrong with some of his ideas, he was the right man for the job.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Noray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/#comment-82726</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Noray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 22:46:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3960#comment-82726</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ray - thank you.  That was what I was trying to say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray &#8211; thank you.  That was what I was trying to say.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/#comment-82725</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 22:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3960#comment-82725</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Personally, while I agree that there is something everyone can learn from every calling they fulfill, I don&#039;t think the Lord wants an entire ward to suffer in order for one person to grow.  In my experience, when it comes to Bishops and Stake Presidents, there is a particular reason that a particular person is going to be needed in the future - so that person is called.

In my lifetime, I have experienced a ward that went through certain problems that required a very strong, single-minded, no-nonsense, &quot;iron rod&quot; Bishop.  A soft-spoken consensus builder would have been eaten alive and spit out.  (I mean that seriously.  The ward might have imploded.)  The Lord knew in advance what trials that ward would face, so he called someone who could handle those trials - even though some other issues arose as a result.  When those trials passed, the Bishop was released - and a soft-spoken, incredibly humble and gentle man was called to take his place.  It was revelation through the Stake President in the truest sense.

Both were the right person for their specific time because of the particular strengths each possessed that were a perfect match for the issues of their own administration.  Yes, they learned lessons while they served, but I am convinced that their learning of those lessons was not the primary reason they were called.  They were secondary to the needs of the body of Christ they led.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, while I agree that there is something everyone can learn from every calling they fulfill, I don&#8217;t think the Lord wants an entire ward to suffer in order for one person to grow.  In my experience, when it comes to Bishops and Stake Presidents, there is a particular reason that a particular person is going to be needed in the future &#8211; so that person is called.</p>
<p>In my lifetime, I have experienced a ward that went through certain problems that required a very strong, single-minded, no-nonsense, &#8220;iron rod&#8221; Bishop.  A soft-spoken consensus builder would have been eaten alive and spit out.  (I mean that seriously.  The ward might have imploded.)  The Lord knew in advance what trials that ward would face, so he called someone who could handle those trials &#8211; even though some other issues arose as a result.  When those trials passed, the Bishop was released &#8211; and a soft-spoken, incredibly humble and gentle man was called to take his place.  It was revelation through the Stake President in the truest sense.</p>
<p>Both were the right person for their specific time because of the particular strengths each possessed that were a perfect match for the issues of their own administration.  Yes, they learned lessons while they served, but I am convinced that their learning of those lessons was not the primary reason they were called.  They were secondary to the needs of the body of Christ they led.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Naismith</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/#comment-82724</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Naismith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3960#comment-82724</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;If callings were just given to those who needed to learn from them, we all would get called to everything.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not so, because we all have different things to learn, and different competencies.

I&#039;m just saying, when a well-to-do person gets called as EQP or bishop, maybe it is as much for what they must learn as for their ability to serve.

I did a stint as primary chorister, in a large ward in a college town that had many more musically qualified people.  It was humiliating to have to sing in front of people every week.  But I learned humility, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If callings were just given to those who needed to learn from them, we all would get called to everything.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not so, because we all have different things to learn, and different competencies.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just saying, when a well-to-do person gets called as EQP or bishop, maybe it is as much for what they must learn as for their ability to serve.</p>
<p>I did a stint as primary chorister, in a large ward in a college town that had many more musically qualified people.  It was humiliating to have to sing in front of people every week.  But I learned humility, etc.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Noray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/#comment-82723</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Noray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 12:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3960#comment-82723</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#90  I know that we have been told that callings are to help us learn things HF wants us to know, and I am sure that is true to a certain extent, but I think there is more to it than that.  I think the Lord calls people who are the right ones to accomplish what He needs done at the time.  We had a farmer as a BP who was not a smooth talking, tactful leader.  He was very competent but just not especially easy to get along with.  He had a very strong testimony of self reliance and financial responsibility and while he lead our unit many of us made strides in accomplishing those goals for ourselves. It was something we really needed to learn as a unit as we are in an economically depressed area where good jobs are hard to find and most of us are not professional people.  Now we have a BP who is very spiritual and I believe that is what we are to learn from him.  If callings were just given to those who needed to learn from them, we all would get called to everything.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#90  I know that we have been told that callings are to help us learn things HF wants us to know, and I am sure that is true to a certain extent, but I think there is more to it than that.  I think the Lord calls people who are the right ones to accomplish what He needs done at the time.  We had a farmer as a BP who was not a smooth talking, tactful leader.  He was very competent but just not especially easy to get along with.  He had a very strong testimony of self reliance and financial responsibility and while he lead our unit many of us made strides in accomplishing those goals for ourselves. It was something we really needed to learn as a unit as we are in an economically depressed area where good jobs are hard to find and most of us are not professional people.  Now we have a BP who is very spiritual and I believe that is what we are to learn from him.  If callings were just given to those who needed to learn from them, we all would get called to everything.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Naismith</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/#comment-82722</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Naismith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 11:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3960#comment-82722</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Sure it’s not an absolute rule, but in general I think the average MBA who has had to manage budgets and groups of people brings something to the table in a calling of that sort that the average mechanic or brick layer might not.&quot;

But the thing is, callings in the church are not about what you can bring to the table, but what you learn by sitting at the table.

A lot of times the congregation has to suffer with less-than-ideal leadership while a member learns to serve.  We&#039;re a lay ministry, and part of the deal is to perfect the saints through service.

It&#039;s not efficient, but it&#039;s how we tend to do things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sure it’s not an absolute rule, but in general I think the average MBA who has had to manage budgets and groups of people brings something to the table in a calling of that sort that the average mechanic or brick layer might not.&#8221;</p>
<p>But the thing is, callings in the church are not about what you can bring to the table, but what you learn by sitting at the table.</p>
<p>A lot of times the congregation has to suffer with less-than-ideal leadership while a member learns to serve.  We&#8217;re a lay ministry, and part of the deal is to perfect the saints through service.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not efficient, but it&#8217;s how we tend to do things.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jay in Phoenix</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/#comment-82721</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay in Phoenix]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3960#comment-82721</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think you all are over-analyzing this issue.

First, in general we want everyone to be as educated as we can get them.  Sure this can be taken to an unreasonable extreme, but if done in wisdom and order, getting more education rather than less is a no-brainer.  Why would we encourage anything less than that?

Second, the issue in creating Zion is not getting rid of wealth, it is getting rid of poverty.  And of course in becoming spiritually united.  One heart, one mind, and no poor among us - never said anything about eating the rich.  God just wants us to care for one another temporally and spiritually, and within ourselves to avoid sin, selfishness and pride.  Let&#039;s put it this way: I think he&#039;d rather see us driving a Lexus to visit a friend from the Ward in the hospital than a used, beat-up Civic to the sports bar.  And like me, I think Jesus would prefer watching conference on a big screen TV over a small black and white TV any day.  Nothing wrong with a lttle comfort as long as we do not neglect our duties and covenants.

Third, I think we place far too much meaning on who gets what callings than is necessary.  The more academically educated will tend to have skills in administration that are useful to the Lord in such positions as Bishop or Stake President and so on, that the less educated may not have had the opportunity to develop.  It&#039;s not a shock that the Lord would act accordingly.  Sure it&#039;s not an absolute rule, but in general I think the average MBA who has had to manage budgets and groups of people brings something to the table in a calling of that sort that the average mechanic or brick layer might not.  Yeah yeah I know there&#039;s always going to be exceptions but in general I think this is a resonable perspective to have on this issue.  So I see all this &quot;why can&#039;t we have more farmers becoming Apostles?&quot; type of stuff as much ado about nothing.

That&#039;s my ake anyways.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you all are over-analyzing this issue.</p>
<p>First, in general we want everyone to be as educated as we can get them.  Sure this can be taken to an unreasonable extreme, but if done in wisdom and order, getting more education rather than less is a no-brainer.  Why would we encourage anything less than that?</p>
<p>Second, the issue in creating Zion is not getting rid of wealth, it is getting rid of poverty.  And of course in becoming spiritually united.  One heart, one mind, and no poor among us &#8211; never said anything about eating the rich.  God just wants us to care for one another temporally and spiritually, and within ourselves to avoid sin, selfishness and pride.  Let&#8217;s put it this way: I think he&#8217;d rather see us driving a Lexus to visit a friend from the Ward in the hospital than a used, beat-up Civic to the sports bar.  And like me, I think Jesus would prefer watching conference on a big screen TV over a small black and white TV any day.  Nothing wrong with a lttle comfort as long as we do not neglect our duties and covenants.</p>
<p>Third, I think we place far too much meaning on who gets what callings than is necessary.  The more academically educated will tend to have skills in administration that are useful to the Lord in such positions as Bishop or Stake President and so on, that the less educated may not have had the opportunity to develop.  It&#8217;s not a shock that the Lord would act accordingly.  Sure it&#8217;s not an absolute rule, but in general I think the average MBA who has had to manage budgets and groups of people brings something to the table in a calling of that sort that the average mechanic or brick layer might not.  Yeah yeah I know there&#8217;s always going to be exceptions but in general I think this is a resonable perspective to have on this issue.  So I see all this &#8220;why can&#8217;t we have more farmers becoming Apostles?&#8221; type of stuff as much ado about nothing.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s my ake anyways.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/#comment-82720</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3960#comment-82720</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[gst, either that or things are really worse for other people.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gst, either that or things are really worse for other people.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sam K</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/02/education-and-class/#comment-82719</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 05:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3960#comment-82719</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have to second your thoughts in #67, gst.
I&#039;ve been a civil and criminal litigator over the last 20+ years and find that at the end of the 10 to 12 hour day, my mind is fried and I just want to veg.  Too tired to deal with Church, no desire for the bedroom, just sit and talk to my wife about her day (she&#039;s in state government upper management, her days being just as fun as mine) so I can stop thinking about my cases and what needs to be done the next morning......

And in my years in the Church I have been in wards where it was mostly blue color and quite frankly, there was a level of humility I do not find in other wards where it is white color and professional.  I have also been in stakes where there was a clear dividing line between the rich and the poor and it seemed there was more emphasis to ensure the poorer wards were taken care of, rather than there being a common ground for all of us.....

And last but not least.... Are we not commanded to &quot;study all things&quot; because the glory of God is &quot;intelligence&quot;.  I am not equating &quot;intelligence&quot; with &quot;education&quot; or &quot;learning&quot; but it would have been nice if God had defined &quot;intelligence&quot; for us although I personally tend to believe it is &quot;learning AND wisdom&quot;.

My thoughts on a nite when my two younger adult children (still living at home) are partying in the backyard with turntables ablasting and my mind is slowly but surely dissolving with the madness......]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to second your thoughts in #67, gst.<br />
I&#8217;ve been a civil and criminal litigator over the last 20+ years and find that at the end of the 10 to 12 hour day, my mind is fried and I just want to veg.  Too tired to deal with Church, no desire for the bedroom, just sit and talk to my wife about her day (she&#8217;s in state government upper management, her days being just as fun as mine) so I can stop thinking about my cases and what needs to be done the next morning&#8230;&#8230;</p>
<p>And in my years in the Church I have been in wards where it was mostly blue color and quite frankly, there was a level of humility I do not find in other wards where it is white color and professional.  I have also been in stakes where there was a clear dividing line between the rich and the poor and it seemed there was more emphasis to ensure the poorer wards were taken care of, rather than there being a common ground for all of us&#8230;..</p>
<p>And last but not least&#8230;. Are we not commanded to &#8220;study all things&#8221; because the glory of God is &#8220;intelligence&#8221;.  I am not equating &#8220;intelligence&#8221; with &#8220;education&#8221; or &#8220;learning&#8221; but it would have been nice if God had defined &#8220;intelligence&#8221; for us although I personally tend to believe it is &#8220;learning AND wisdom&#8221;.</p>
<p>My thoughts on a nite when my two younger adult children (still living at home) are partying in the backyard with turntables ablasting and my mind is slowly but surely dissolving with the madness&#8230;&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

