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	<title>Comments on: The Perspectives of Faith: Why Mormon Faithful Scholarship is a Self-Cannibalizing Project</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/#comment-104181</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4015#comment-104181</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read the comments, so this is probably coming too late, but I would point out that Duffy and to a certain extent JNS in this post are confusing a critique of modernism with relativism.  They are not the same thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read the comments, so this is probably coming too late, but I would point out that Duffy and to a certain extent JNS in this post are confusing a critique of modernism with relativism.  They are not the same thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/#comment-104179</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4015#comment-104179</guid>
		<description>In the end, I think your #47:

&lt;i&gt;Mormon Studies won’t ever grow in secular academia&lt;/i&gt;
is probably the case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the end, I think your #47:</p>
<p><i>Mormon Studies won’t ever grow in secular academia</i><br />
is probably the case.</p>
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		<title>By: John Hamer</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/#comment-104077</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hamer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4015#comment-104077</guid>
		<description>This is really interesting stuff, J.   Like a lot of historians, I’m a dinosaur when it comes to theory.  But even if theory resides in the rear of my two dinosaur brains, it’s still there for me as clearly as it is for our positivist historian friends.  I think that my own work is probably an example of what happens when this perspectivist theory moves further towards its logical conclusion of giving consideration to the competing perspectives of all of the actors in the narrative.

So, for example, when I am looking at the history of the Strangites, I do my best to consider and respect the perspectives of individual Strangite Mormons.  I&#039;ve been thinking about these ideas a lot lately.  Thanks for giving me some more to chew on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is really interesting stuff, J.   Like a lot of historians, I’m a dinosaur when it comes to theory.  But even if theory resides in the rear of my two dinosaur brains, it’s still there for me as clearly as it is for our positivist historian friends.  I think that my own work is probably an example of what happens when this perspectivist theory moves further towards its logical conclusion of giving consideration to the competing perspectives of all of the actors in the narrative.</p>
<p>So, for example, when I am looking at the history of the Strangites, I do my best to consider and respect the perspectives of individual Strangite Mormons.  I&#8217;ve been thinking about these ideas a lot lately.  Thanks for giving me some more to chew on.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/#comment-104078</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Nelson-Seawright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4015#comment-104078</guid>
		<description>Clark, I actually meant the postmodern vs. positivist framing.  That originates, in these discussions, with Midgley and subsequently Bohn, I think.  They extensively reference the antipositivist classics (you know the list) in explaining why the New Mormon History was a betrayal of the faith, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark, I actually meant the postmodern vs. positivist framing.  That originates, in these discussions, with Midgley and subsequently Bohn, I think.  They extensively reference the antipositivist classics (you know the list) in explaining why the New Mormon History was a betrayal of the faith, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/#comment-104079</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4015#comment-104079</guid>
		<description>John (54), yeah.  I agree completely.  This was the point I was trying to make way back in my discussion with &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.libertypages.com/clark/10110.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Goff and Vogel&lt;/a&gt;.  Note I&#039;ve not read Duffy&#039;s paper yet simply because I&#039;ve not found time to go up on campus and make a photocopy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John (54), yeah.  I agree completely.  This was the point I was trying to make way back in my discussion with <a href="http://www.libertypages.com/clark/10110.html" rel="nofollow">Goff and Vogel</a>.  Note I&#8217;ve not read Duffy&#8217;s paper yet simply because I&#8217;ve not found time to go up on campus and make a photocopy.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/#comment-104080</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4015#comment-104080</guid>
		<description>Which point?  You mean about Kuhn?  I&#039;d have to reread them - it&#039;s been a long time.  As I said I don&#039;t want to say appealing to Kuhn is always problematic anymore than talking about frames are.  However it is quite abused and even if a particular author is careful and limited often readers of the article aren&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which point?  You mean about Kuhn?  I&#8217;d have to reread them &#8211; it&#8217;s been a long time.  As I said I don&#8217;t want to say appealing to Kuhn is always problematic anymore than talking about frames are.  However it is quite abused and even if a particular author is careful and limited often readers of the article aren&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/#comment-104081</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Nelson-Seawright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4015#comment-104081</guid>
		<description>SmallAxe, yeah, that response was overstated.  Blame the fact that it was late at night for me?

I don&#039;t know the extent to which people embrace perspectivism in their own disciplines, but it seems to me that something much like perspectivism is the basis on which people in academia outside religious studies, ethnic studies, and related fields justify the existence of those fields.  In particular, university administrators and fundraisers often make appeals explicitly on this basis.

I wonder what argument, other than something like a perspectivism position, would lead a secular university outside the Mormon corridor to create a position that could be filled by a scholar who is explicit about her own Mormon faith in her research?  Invocations of concepts like diversity and representation fall within the boundaries of perspectivism here: the idea that having more points of view on campus is good &lt;em&gt;per se&lt;/em&gt;, and not because those points of view might be specifically valid or correct...

Clark, Midgley and Bohn were explicit on that point in their articles, weren&#039;t they?

John F., I love you, man.  Let &lt;em&gt;Rough Stone Rolling&lt;/em&gt; go.  It doesn&#039;t fit the conversation.  In particular, I haven&#039;t said a word that relates in any way to the idea that future biographers of Joseph Smith might disregard Bushman&#039;s work.  The question here is really about where future biographers of Joseph Smith will &lt;em&gt;work&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SmallAxe, yeah, that response was overstated.  Blame the fact that it was late at night for me?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the extent to which people embrace perspectivism in their own disciplines, but it seems to me that something much like perspectivism is the basis on which people in academia outside religious studies, ethnic studies, and related fields justify the existence of those fields.  In particular, university administrators and fundraisers often make appeals explicitly on this basis.</p>
<p>I wonder what argument, other than something like a perspectivism position, would lead a secular university outside the Mormon corridor to create a position that could be filled by a scholar who is explicit about her own Mormon faith in her research?  Invocations of concepts like diversity and representation fall within the boundaries of perspectivism here: the idea that having more points of view on campus is good <em>per se</em>, and not because those points of view might be specifically valid or correct&#8230;</p>
<p>Clark, Midgley and Bohn were explicit on that point in their articles, weren&#8217;t they?</p>
<p>John F., I love you, man.  Let <em>Rough Stone Rolling</em> go.  It doesn&#8217;t fit the conversation.  In particular, I haven&#8217;t said a word that relates in any way to the idea that future biographers of Joseph Smith might disregard Bushman&#8217;s work.  The question here is really about where future biographers of Joseph Smith will <em>work</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: john f.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/#comment-104083</link>
		<dc:creator>john f.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4015#comment-104083</guid>
		<description>re # 47, &lt;i&gt;SmallAxe, interesting point. I do know that people in the postmodern grouping love to argue with people outside of it. In any case, if you’re right, then Mormon Studies won’t ever grow in secular academia and it’s all just a pipe dream in any case.&lt;/i&gt;

JNS, it seems like you are saying, flat out, that only perspectivism will cause Mormon Studies to grow in secular academia.  That&#039;s a non sequitur, right?

If Mormon Studies didn&#039;t exist, Bushman&#039;s biography of Joseph Smith could still exist in exactly the same form that it does now.  It would be a work of American history in the cultural history genre, perhaps, and not a product of &quot;Mormon Studies&quot; at all.  That the biography lets Joseph Smith speak for himself without taking extra space to offer speculations as to just how Smith was defrauding people despite what he was saying (Vogel) would not be enough to justify future biographers rejecting it without addressing it.  The book presents evidence from the historical record and draws some inferences therefrom and in other cases abstains from drawing inferences after presenting the evidence itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re # 47, <i>SmallAxe, interesting point. I do know that people in the postmodern grouping love to argue with people outside of it. In any case, if you’re right, then Mormon Studies won’t ever grow in secular academia and it’s all just a pipe dream in any case.</i></p>
<p>JNS, it seems like you are saying, flat out, that only perspectivism will cause Mormon Studies to grow in secular academia.  That&#8217;s a non sequitur, right?</p>
<p>If Mormon Studies didn&#8217;t exist, Bushman&#8217;s biography of Joseph Smith could still exist in exactly the same form that it does now.  It would be a work of American history in the cultural history genre, perhaps, and not a product of &#8220;Mormon Studies&#8221; at all.  That the biography lets Joseph Smith speak for himself without taking extra space to offer speculations as to just how Smith was defrauding people despite what he was saying (Vogel) would not be enough to justify future biographers rejecting it without addressing it.  The book presents evidence from the historical record and draws some inferences therefrom and in other cases abstains from drawing inferences after presenting the evidence itself.</p>
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		<title>By: john f.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/#comment-104082</link>
		<dc:creator>john f.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4015#comment-104082</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Someone who claimed that the existing evidence never mentions Joseph Smith as a treasure digger will have a hard time being taken seriously by anyone.&lt;/i&gt;

I thought you said there were no superior arguments or at least that no one can tell what they are.  Based on the quote above, however, it looks like we agree.  Thus, Bushman&#039;s work can be evaluated on how it engages the evidence and whether the inferences Bushman makes are compatible with that evidence.  Healthy debate can also follow regarding why Bushman prefers certain possible inferences over others.  And of course everyone already has a seat at the table, independent of perspectivism.  It&#039;s just that their place at the table is at least partially dependent on what they actually say.  For example, if they say that &quot;the existing evidence never mentions Joseph Smith as a treasure digger&quot; then they might well forfeit their place at the table.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Someone who claimed that the existing evidence never mentions Joseph Smith as a treasure digger will have a hard time being taken seriously by anyone.</i></p>
<p>I thought you said there were no superior arguments or at least that no one can tell what they are.  Based on the quote above, however, it looks like we agree.  Thus, Bushman&#8217;s work can be evaluated on how it engages the evidence and whether the inferences Bushman makes are compatible with that evidence.  Healthy debate can also follow regarding why Bushman prefers certain possible inferences over others.  And of course everyone already has a seat at the table, independent of perspectivism.  It&#8217;s just that their place at the table is at least partially dependent on what they actually say.  For example, if they say that &#8220;the existing evidence never mentions Joseph Smith as a treasure digger&#8221; then they might well forfeit their place at the table.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/24/the-perspectives-of-faith-why-mormon-faithful-scholarship-is-a-self-cannibalizing-project/#comment-104084</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 04:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4015#comment-104084</guid>
		<description>I also dislike when Kuhn gets invoked in all this - especially since his notion of paradigm is hopelessly muddled in science let alone softer pursuits like history.  Of course he points at a general approach but I think there are problems.  (No offense Kevin, I largely agree with your points - I just tend to cringe when Kuhn gets invokes nearly as much as I do frames.  And, as with frames, there&#039;s a lot of truth to the ideas it&#039;s just that there so much misapplication.  Especially since Kuhn was in many ways working within the positivist tradition and his book was published by a positivist press.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also dislike when Kuhn gets invoked in all this &#8211; especially since his notion of paradigm is hopelessly muddled in science let alone softer pursuits like history.  Of course he points at a general approach but I think there are problems.  (No offense Kevin, I largely agree with your points &#8211; I just tend to cringe when Kuhn gets invokes nearly as much as I do frames.  And, as with frames, there&#8217;s a lot of truth to the ideas it&#8217;s just that there so much misapplication.  Especially since Kuhn was in many ways working within the positivist tradition and his book was published by a positivist press.)</p>
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