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	<title>Comments on: Should Mormon Intellectuals be Kantians?  (or, Why Intellectual Integrity is Overrated)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: BHodges</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/#comment-75999</link>
		<dc:creator>BHodges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4028#comment-75999</guid>
		<description>Finished. Brilliant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finished. Brilliant.</p>
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		<title>By: BHodges</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/#comment-75998</link>
		<dc:creator>BHodges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4028#comment-75998</guid>
		<description>Not through reading yet but thus far I just wanted to say I really like this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not through reading yet but thus far I just wanted to say I really like this post.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/#comment-75997</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 04:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good call Obi-wan.  Although I think Socratic integrity and what developed in the 20th century are pretty different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good call Obi-wan.  Although I think Socratic integrity and what developed in the 20th century are pretty different.</p>
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		<title>By: kristine N</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/#comment-75996</link>
		<dc:creator>kristine N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 04:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4028#comment-75996</guid>
		<description>Peter--the key here (at least, as I&#039;m reading this) is the &quot;self justification&quot; aspect.  My statement was, at least mostly, tongue in cheek--it&#039;s great when people have enough interest in science to even form an opinion, even if it&#039;s wrong or based on incomplete information.  The frustration behind my statement (which has next to nothing to do with Kristine&#039;s post) comes from the willful denial of information that contradicts opinions that are wrong or scientifically unjustified that I encounter all too often when I hear discussions of politically charged scientific topics.  The only real link between my statement and Kristine&#039;s post is that frequently those who deny some bit of scientific evidence do so out of self justification.  Or, at least, that&#039;s how it seems to me.  People should have opinions, but they should also always be willing to modify or discard those opinions as they encounter new information.  That, however, requires a level of dispassionate observation that human beings aren&#039;t terribly good at.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter&#8211;the key here (at least, as I&#8217;m reading this) is the &#8220;self justification&#8221; aspect.  My statement was, at least mostly, tongue in cheek&#8211;it&#8217;s great when people have enough interest in science to even form an opinion, even if it&#8217;s wrong or based on incomplete information.  The frustration behind my statement (which has next to nothing to do with Kristine&#8217;s post) comes from the willful denial of information that contradicts opinions that are wrong or scientifically unjustified that I encounter all too often when I hear discussions of politically charged scientific topics.  The only real link between my statement and Kristine&#8217;s post is that frequently those who deny some bit of scientific evidence do so out of self justification.  Or, at least, that&#8217;s how it seems to me.  People should have opinions, but they should also always be willing to modify or discard those opinions as they encounter new information.  That, however, requires a level of dispassionate observation that human beings aren&#8217;t terribly good at.</p>
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		<title>By: obi-wan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/#comment-75995</link>
		<dc:creator>obi-wan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I do, however, want to note that “intellectual integrity” is a fairly recent historical construct,&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Socrates? recent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I do, however, want to note that “intellectual integrity” is a fairly recent historical construct,</p></blockquote>
<p>Socrates? recent?</p>
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		<title>By: mormonmagmeister</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/#comment-75994</link>
		<dc:creator>mormonmagmeister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Aug 2008 15:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4028#comment-75994</guid>
		<description>This is a truly interesting discussion. I don&#039;t have much to add except a reminder of what Kant&#039;s definitions of &lt;em&gt;public&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;private&lt;/em&gt; were in this context.

In the essay, when he used the word &lt;em&gt;public&lt;/em&gt; (&lt;em&gt;öffentlich&lt;/em&gt;), he basically meant published (&lt;em&gt;veröffentlicht&lt;/em&gt;). He said scholars or pastors were bound to obey when performing their &lt;em&gt;private&lt;/em&gt; duties for the state or church (what many of us would call &lt;em&gt;public&lt;/em&gt; duties). But when exercising their reason in public, or in other words, when publishing for a readership (&lt;em&gt;Leserwelt&lt;/em&gt;), he said they ought to be free to express themselves as they wished. I&#039;m not exactly sure how that applies to the Church today, but I suspect that it&#039;s largely true for most members. It&#039;s usually only when the exercise of this freedom morphs into priestcraft or rebellion that people might run into difficulties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a truly interesting discussion. I don&#8217;t have much to add except a reminder of what Kant&#8217;s definitions of <em>public</em> and <em>private</em> were in this context.</p>
<p>In the essay, when he used the word <em>public</em> (<em>öffentlich</em>), he basically meant published (<em>veröffentlicht</em>). He said scholars or pastors were bound to obey when performing their <em>private</em> duties for the state or church (what many of us would call <em>public</em> duties). But when exercising their reason in public, or in other words, when publishing for a readership (<em>Leserwelt</em>), he said they ought to be free to express themselves as they wished. I&#8217;m not exactly sure how that applies to the Church today, but I suspect that it&#8217;s largely true for most members. It&#8217;s usually only when the exercise of this freedom morphs into priestcraft or rebellion that people might run into difficulties.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy B</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/#comment-75993</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 15:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4028#comment-75993</guid>
		<description>Kristine, a beautiful and thought-provoking post. And excellent comments, folks. This has been a great discussion. I don&#039;t have much time to comment today, so just a couple thoughts.

First, as ZD Eve alluded to, it&#039;s not the general principle here (few truths are so compelling as to require the abandonment of communities of belief or affection or of religious practice) that I see as particularly controversial, but instead what limits there might be to the idea.

And second (which is really just the flip side of the first), it occurs to me that the more robust this idea is, the more difficult (at least potentially) the church&#039;s missionary efforts become. So, while this idea may have helped convince Aaron that he could and should stay in the church, presumably it will similarly convince others in different faith communities that they can and should stay in theirs. Moreover, doesn&#039;t this idea implicate how insistent we are or should be that others abandon their communities for ours?

Again, great discussion all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kristine, a beautiful and thought-provoking post. And excellent comments, folks. This has been a great discussion. I don&#8217;t have much time to comment today, so just a couple thoughts.</p>
<p>First, as ZD Eve alluded to, it&#8217;s not the general principle here (few truths are so compelling as to require the abandonment of communities of belief or affection or of religious practice) that I see as particularly controversial, but instead what limits there might be to the idea.</p>
<p>And second (which is really just the flip side of the first), it occurs to me that the more robust this idea is, the more difficult (at least potentially) the church&#8217;s missionary efforts become. So, while this idea may have helped convince Aaron that he could and should stay in the church, presumably it will similarly convince others in different faith communities that they can and should stay in theirs. Moreover, doesn&#8217;t this idea implicate how insistent we are or should be that others abandon their communities for ours?</p>
<p>Again, great discussion all.</p>
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		<title>By: Randall</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/#comment-75992</link>
		<dc:creator>Randall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4028#comment-75992</guid>
		<description>Kristine,  your post reminds me of Maturana’s ideas on structural coupling.  A metaphor that he uses is the beloved shoe.  After providing many years of good service to the wearer, the shoe has molded to the foot and the foot has molded to the shoe.  Both have been altered by the experience.  Major differences in shoe or foot (i.e. size 10 foot and size 6 shoe) that were present at the outset of the relationship would have foreclosed the coupling, as would any major changes in either after the coupling had been achieved (i.e.  bottom of shoe melts onto campfire rocks while heating feet at winter camp).

Similarly, we structurally couple with our church.  We make a commitment to sufficient orthodoxy and orthopraxy to allow us to wear the shoe of our faith.  Similarly, the shoe provides enough benefit to eventually re-form our foot.  However, major changes in shoe or church will eventually lead to blisters, shin splints, surgeries, or a trip to shoe store.

Within the congregation wearing the same shoe as me, when I have concerns about the shoe, I am best able to evoke (Maturana would say “invite”) change by ensuring that my orthodoxy and orthopraxy are similar enough to the beliefs and behaviors of my fellow congregants that I’m not causing bunions in others.  By remaining sufficiently aligned to maintain viability, I’m able to signal small differences that are assimilated,  accommodated, and not rejected.

Like shoe in foot, or hand in glove—as is the more common LDS metaphor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kristine,  your post reminds me of Maturana’s ideas on structural coupling.  A metaphor that he uses is the beloved shoe.  After providing many years of good service to the wearer, the shoe has molded to the foot and the foot has molded to the shoe.  Both have been altered by the experience.  Major differences in shoe or foot (i.e. size 10 foot and size 6 shoe) that were present at the outset of the relationship would have foreclosed the coupling, as would any major changes in either after the coupling had been achieved (i.e.  bottom of shoe melts onto campfire rocks while heating feet at winter camp).</p>
<p>Similarly, we structurally couple with our church.  We make a commitment to sufficient orthodoxy and orthopraxy to allow us to wear the shoe of our faith.  Similarly, the shoe provides enough benefit to eventually re-form our foot.  However, major changes in shoe or church will eventually lead to blisters, shin splints, surgeries, or a trip to shoe store.</p>
<p>Within the congregation wearing the same shoe as me, when I have concerns about the shoe, I am best able to evoke (Maturana would say “invite”) change by ensuring that my orthodoxy and orthopraxy are similar enough to the beliefs and behaviors of my fellow congregants that I’m not causing bunions in others.  By remaining sufficiently aligned to maintain viability, I’m able to signal small differences that are assimilated,  accommodated, and not rejected.</p>
<p>Like shoe in foot, or hand in glove—as is the more common LDS metaphor.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter LLC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/#comment-75991</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter LLC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 07:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4028#comment-75991</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Too bad I can’t say this to people about science–most people get a tad upset when you suggest to them their intellectual background in any way invalidates their opinions.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It would be a dreary world indeed if only experts were allowed to hold opinions. Let us not confuse opinion with positive knowledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Too bad I can’t say this to people about science–most people get a tad upset when you suggest to them their intellectual background in any way invalidates their opinions.</p></blockquote>
<p>It would be a dreary world indeed if only experts were allowed to hold opinions. Let us not confuse opinion with positive knowledge.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Russell</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/01/should-mormon-intellectuals-be-kantians-or-why-intellectual-integrity-is-overrated/#comment-75990</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 23:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4028#comment-75990</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I can wholeheartedly love a religion that holds the paradoxical possibility of such obedience in productive tension with teachings of free agency and personal revelation.&lt;/em&gt;

I&#039;m a bit confused by this. Perhaps I understand &#039;agency&#039; differently, but I don&#039;t see any tension here. It is agency that makes such obedience possible. In fact, I would &lt;em&gt;define&lt;/em&gt; agency as the &quot;possibility of such obedience.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I can wholeheartedly love a religion that holds the paradoxical possibility of such obedience in productive tension with teachings of free agency and personal revelation.</em></p>
<p>I&#8217;m a bit confused by this. Perhaps I understand &#8216;agency&#8217; differently, but I don&#8217;t see any tension here. It is agency that makes such obedience possible. In fact, I would <em>define</em> agency as the &#8220;possibility of such obedience.&#8221;</p>
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