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	<title>Comments on: My Way or the Highway</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Mark IV</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/#comment-82883</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark IV]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4034#comment-82883</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Confutus,

I&#039;ll repeat again, not only do I regret the way I participated, I regret that I even participated at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Confutus,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll repeat again, not only do I regret the way I participated, I regret that I even participated at all.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Confutus</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/#comment-82882</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Confutus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 07:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4034#comment-82882</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark,
   I roomed with a self-righeous troll type for a cople of years. The whole internet is infested with them, as I&#039;m sure you&#039;re well aware. I can usually recognize them, and Bryce doesn&#039;t write anything like one.
   I think Bryce expected to draw some fire by quoting  President Lee&#039;s characterization of those openly doubt, disdain, or deride the leadership, practices, or teachings of the Church as less than fully faithful.  So, what happened? As if right on cue, you of all people then went into high dudgeon that he would have the brazen nerve to dredge this up to criticize your in-group, walked over to his blog, and busted him in the chops. As Mr. Spock might say, lifting an eyebrow, &quot;Fascinating&quot;.
Nobody had to say another word.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,<br />
   I roomed with a self-righeous troll type for a cople of years. The whole internet is infested with them, as I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re well aware. I can usually recognize them, and Bryce doesn&#8217;t write anything like one.<br />
   I think Bryce expected to draw some fire by quoting  President Lee&#8217;s characterization of those openly doubt, disdain, or deride the leadership, practices, or teachings of the Church as less than fully faithful.  So, what happened? As if right on cue, you of all people then went into high dudgeon that he would have the brazen nerve to dredge this up to criticize your in-group, walked over to his blog, and busted him in the chops. As Mr. Spock might say, lifting an eyebrow, &#8220;Fascinating&#8221;.<br />
Nobody had to say another word.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Thurston</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/#comment-82881</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt Thurston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 20:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4034#comment-82881</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark said, &lt;em&gt;&quot;Can somebody show us a way out of this mess?&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

There is no way out of it.  One man&#039;s personal religious hobby is another man&#039;s orthodoxy, and vice versa.  One man&#039;s personal obsession is another man&#039;s spiritual impression, and vice versa.

Without some semblance of boundary (i.e. orthodoxy), religious institutions would quickly fall into chaos.  But the more rigid you draw those boundaries, the more people you wall out (on the outside), or spiritually stifle (on the inside).  It&#039;s a balancing act for the institution, and for the individual.

So there is no way &lt;em&gt;out &lt;/em&gt;of &quot;the mess&quot;... if &quot;out of it&quot; means coming to an end-all-be-all final answer that is not &quot;42&quot;.  The only way is &lt;em&gt;through &lt;/em&gt; it, which works best if armed with an &lt;em&gt;Open Mind&lt;/em&gt; and a healthy dose of &lt;em&gt;Mutual Respect&lt;/em&gt;.

And frankly, I think the Bloggernacle does a better job of managing the journey &lt;em&gt;through &lt;/em&gt;the mess than does the church, so I wouldn&#039;t be too hard on the bloggernacle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark said, <em>&#8220;Can somebody show us a way out of this mess?&#8221;</em></p>
<p>There is no way out of it.  One man&#8217;s personal religious hobby is another man&#8217;s orthodoxy, and vice versa.  One man&#8217;s personal obsession is another man&#8217;s spiritual impression, and vice versa.</p>
<p>Without some semblance of boundary (i.e. orthodoxy), religious institutions would quickly fall into chaos.  But the more rigid you draw those boundaries, the more people you wall out (on the outside), or spiritually stifle (on the inside).  It&#8217;s a balancing act for the institution, and for the individual.</p>
<p>So there is no way <em>out </em>of &#8220;the mess&#8221;&#8230; if &#8220;out of it&#8221; means coming to an end-all-be-all final answer that is not &#8220;42&#8243;.  The only way is <em>through </em> it, which works best if armed with an <em>Open Mind</em> and a healthy dose of <em>Mutual Respect</em>.</p>
<p>And frankly, I think the Bloggernacle does a better job of managing the journey <em>through </em>the mess than does the church, so I wouldn&#8217;t be too hard on the bloggernacle.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark IV</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/#comment-82880</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark IV]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 13:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4034#comment-82880</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Marjorie:  I&#039;ll bow to your seniority and wisdom.  :-)

Merrybits/Jami:  Do you want to know what makes me proud?  Fifty years from now, my grandkids will be able to google &quot;public assifying&quot; and find a reference to their grandfather.

Howard:  Thank you for that statement and reference to Jared&#039;s blog.

Jessawhy:  Thanks.  One of these years when we are in Arizona, I&#039;ll drop you an email.  I really admire both you and your husband for the way you are raising your sons.

Confutus:  My reaction came from my sense (which I still believe was correct) that points were being scored by taking a church leaders words and twisting them.  Whatever Pres. Lee meant by the term liberal Mromon, it doesn&#039;t mean the same thing now, since we have liberal Mromon SPs, MPs, and GAs.  Due to this blog&#039;s affiliation with Dialogue magazine, it is somewhat self-serving to continually point out that its subscribers are active and believing members, at a rate of 88% activity by the church&#039;s own definition.

If I had an ax to grind about Mormons who live in California, I could make a post entitled &quot;A warning to Mormons in California - You&#039;re all going to hell&quot;, and then quote Brigham Young, verbatim.  When the first irate commenter from California asked me who in the flippin&#039; heck I think I am, I could respond by saying &quot;Ah.  I see.  You persecute me for simply quoting the words of a prophet.  What does this say about you?&quot;  The thread would then descend into even further idiocy.  I regret not only my participation there, but also the way I participated.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marjorie:  I&#8217;ll bow to your seniority and wisdom.  :-)</p>
<p>Merrybits/Jami:  Do you want to know what makes me proud?  Fifty years from now, my grandkids will be able to google &#8220;public assifying&#8221; and find a reference to their grandfather.</p>
<p>Howard:  Thank you for that statement and reference to Jared&#8217;s blog.</p>
<p>Jessawhy:  Thanks.  One of these years when we are in Arizona, I&#8217;ll drop you an email.  I really admire both you and your husband for the way you are raising your sons.</p>
<p>Confutus:  My reaction came from my sense (which I still believe was correct) that points were being scored by taking a church leaders words and twisting them.  Whatever Pres. Lee meant by the term liberal Mromon, it doesn&#8217;t mean the same thing now, since we have liberal Mromon SPs, MPs, and GAs.  Due to this blog&#8217;s affiliation with Dialogue magazine, it is somewhat self-serving to continually point out that its subscribers are active and believing members, at a rate of 88% activity by the church&#8217;s own definition.</p>
<p>If I had an ax to grind about Mormons who live in California, I could make a post entitled &#8220;A warning to Mormons in California &#8211; You&#8217;re all going to hell&#8221;, and then quote Brigham Young, verbatim.  When the first irate commenter from California asked me who in the flippin&#8217; heck I think I am, I could respond by saying &#8220;Ah.  I see.  You persecute me for simply quoting the words of a prophet.  What does this say about you?&#8221;  The thread would then descend into even further idiocy.  I regret not only my participation there, but also the way I participated.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter LLC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/#comment-82879</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter LLC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 11:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4034#comment-82879</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;What stung, and why? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

A net was cast, a catch was landed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What stung, and why? </p></blockquote>
<p>A net was cast, a catch was landed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Confutus</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/#comment-82878</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Confutus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 10:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4034#comment-82878</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wonder who was giving the greater offense. Was it Bryce, for digging up President&#039;s Lee&#039;s address and endorsing it by quoting it, bolding those parts he thought pertinent, and directing it specifically at &quot;New Order Mormons&quot;?. That is what he did, but since just about everyone who quotes any authority is doing something similar, it&#039;s hardly criminal behavior. &quot;I was just quoting&quot; does seem a pretty lame defese, but going after someone personally because you don&#039;t like something he quoted is a pretty cheap attack.  No glory to either side on that one.
  Or was it President Lee for giving the conference address in the first place? Because President Lee was indeed delivering a pointed rebuke towards certain of those who considered themselves &quot;liberal&quot; in the religious sense in 1971: &quot;Smug&quot; is not an approving description.  There looks like a rather obvious allusion to, if not a direct quote from whatever article started the &quot;Iron Rod&quot; versus &quot;Liahona&quot; saints debate.

    It appears there was still enough sting in it to send Mark into flaming outrage. What stung, and why? Was it the message, the messanger, or something else?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder who was giving the greater offense. Was it Bryce, for digging up President&#8217;s Lee&#8217;s address and endorsing it by quoting it, bolding those parts he thought pertinent, and directing it specifically at &#8220;New Order Mormons&#8221;?. That is what he did, but since just about everyone who quotes any authority is doing something similar, it&#8217;s hardly criminal behavior. &#8220;I was just quoting&#8221; does seem a pretty lame defese, but going after someone personally because you don&#8217;t like something he quoted is a pretty cheap attack.  No glory to either side on that one.<br />
  Or was it President Lee for giving the conference address in the first place? Because President Lee was indeed delivering a pointed rebuke towards certain of those who considered themselves &#8220;liberal&#8221; in the religious sense in 1971: &#8220;Smug&#8221; is not an approving description.  There looks like a rather obvious allusion to, if not a direct quote from whatever article started the &#8220;Iron Rod&#8221; versus &#8220;Liahona&#8221; saints debate.</p>
<p>    It appears there was still enough sting in it to send Mark into flaming outrage. What stung, and why? Was it the message, the messanger, or something else?</p>
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		<title>By: MCQ</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/#comment-82877</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MCQ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 06:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4034#comment-82877</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[FWIW, Mark, I actually think you&#039;re being way too hard on yourself.  At most, you were guilty of overreacting.  But when one is confronted with a passive-aggressive attack launched by someone who refuses to take responsibility for his actions, it&#039;s easy to overreact.  The fact is, given the context, you were probably right about his motives.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, Mark, I actually think you&#8217;re being way too hard on yourself.  At most, you were guilty of overreacting.  But when one is confronted with a passive-aggressive attack launched by someone who refuses to take responsibility for his actions, it&#8217;s easy to overreact.  The fact is, given the context, you were probably right about his motives.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/#comment-82876</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 05:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4034#comment-82876</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#27 - Who would it not include?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#27 &#8211; Who would it not include?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jessawhy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/#comment-82875</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jessawhy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 05:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4034#comment-82875</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, I scanned the other thread.
It&#039;s strange, but I think you brought more attention to it by posting over here.
Still, I&#039;ve always thought of you as one of my top 3 favorite male commenter/posters in the &#039;nacle, so it&#039;s actually refreshing to see you make an ass of yourself.
You generally do so well at being friendly, clever and funny.
And, the apology thing was really cool. You&#039;ve set a good example for me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I scanned the other thread.<br />
It&#8217;s strange, but I think you brought more attention to it by posting over here.<br />
Still, I&#8217;ve always thought of you as one of my top 3 favorite male commenter/posters in the &#8216;nacle, so it&#8217;s actually refreshing to see you make an ass of yourself.<br />
You generally do so well at being friendly, clever and funny.<br />
And, the apology thing was really cool. You&#8217;ve set a good example for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/03/my-way-or-the-highway/#comment-82874</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 04:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4034#comment-82874</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Who is the &quot;we&quot; in Elder Maxwell&#039;s quotation? Does that include everyone?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who is the &#8220;we&#8221; in Elder Maxwell&#8217;s quotation? Does that include everyone?</p>
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