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	<title>Comments on: You can&#8217;t say that in church!</title>
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		<title>By: Pandora</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/07/you-cant-say-that-in-church/#comment-97628</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pandora]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4050#comment-97628</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I try, with varying degrees of success, not to rock the boat at inappropriate times, but sometimes it&#039;s just plain necessary.  Quite some years ago, something took place in the ward I was in that I have never seen before or since.

A joint RS/Priesthood meeting was held to approve the Ward budget.  Most of the time was devoted to the YM/YW organization.  The meeting began with the reading of a statement from SL reminding all wards that the YM and YW organization were to receive equal funding.  The bishop, a rude, arrogant (oh, did I say that?) man proceeded to present a budget that gave the YM approximately 3 times the finding as the YW.

Now I&#039;m not of a particularly feminist bent, but this was in direct contradiction to what the Bishop had read at the beginning of the meeting!  Then he asked for a &quot;vote&quot; on the budget.  I conscienciously determined that I could not raise my hand to support this travesty, but I intended to leave it at that.  It was only as I heard a few gasps around me that I realised that my right hand had just levitated on its own accord when he asked whether anyone was against the budget as presented.  I thought Bishop M was going to have a cow right there in the chapel.

After considerable flustering and blustering and making all sorts of lame excuses for the disparity, he asked whether I could support the budget if it were made &quot;fair&quot;.  His idea of fair was obviously different from mine.  I replied that I would support the budget when the amounts were made equal.  He changed the subject and soon dismissed the meeting.

I remain completely convinced that the record of the meeting stated that there was unanimous support for the budget.

I was just as astonished at myself as anyone else was, but I don&#039;t regret what I did or said.  Afterward, several people, both male and female, voiced VERY quiet and private support for me, but no one dared say it very loudly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I try, with varying degrees of success, not to rock the boat at inappropriate times, but sometimes it&#8217;s just plain necessary.  Quite some years ago, something took place in the ward I was in that I have never seen before or since.</p>
<p>A joint RS/Priesthood meeting was held to approve the Ward budget.  Most of the time was devoted to the YM/YW organization.  The meeting began with the reading of a statement from SL reminding all wards that the YM and YW organization were to receive equal funding.  The bishop, a rude, arrogant (oh, did I say that?) man proceeded to present a budget that gave the YM approximately 3 times the finding as the YW.</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;m not of a particularly feminist bent, but this was in direct contradiction to what the Bishop had read at the beginning of the meeting!  Then he asked for a &#8220;vote&#8221; on the budget.  I conscienciously determined that I could not raise my hand to support this travesty, but I intended to leave it at that.  It was only as I heard a few gasps around me that I realised that my right hand had just levitated on its own accord when he asked whether anyone was against the budget as presented.  I thought Bishop M was going to have a cow right there in the chapel.</p>
<p>After considerable flustering and blustering and making all sorts of lame excuses for the disparity, he asked whether I could support the budget if it were made &#8220;fair&#8221;.  His idea of fair was obviously different from mine.  I replied that I would support the budget when the amounts were made equal.  He changed the subject and soon dismissed the meeting.</p>
<p>I remain completely convinced that the record of the meeting stated that there was unanimous support for the budget.</p>
<p>I was just as astonished at myself as anyone else was, but I don&#8217;t regret what I did or said.  Afterward, several people, both male and female, voiced VERY quiet and private support for me, but no one dared say it very loudly.</p>
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		<title>By: mormonmagmeister</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/07/you-cant-say-that-in-church/#comment-97627</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mormonmagmeister]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4050#comment-97627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;The same culprit is behind our failure to produce great literature: there must be a happy ending, and please, no lurid details. Don’t dwell on the darkness, but look for the light.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I believe that a student of modern literature (or at least literary theory and criticism) would say that this statement about American literature is exactly the opposite of the truth. In fact, Mark Helprin recently had a bone to pick with America&#039;s so-called literati on this very issue. They&#039;re &lt;em&gt;too&lt;/em&gt; interested in the darkness.

Anyway, regarding church, I&#039;d say that a certain degree of self-censorship (otherwise known as reflection, consideration, or thinking) is called for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The same culprit is behind our failure to produce great literature: there must be a happy ending, and please, no lurid details. Don’t dwell on the darkness, but look for the light.</p></blockquote>
<p>I believe that a student of modern literature (or at least literary theory and criticism) would say that this statement about American literature is exactly the opposite of the truth. In fact, Mark Helprin recently had a bone to pick with America&#8217;s so-called literati on this very issue. They&#8217;re <em>too</em> interested in the darkness.</p>
<p>Anyway, regarding church, I&#8217;d say that a certain degree of self-censorship (otherwise known as reflection, consideration, or thinking) is called for.</p>
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		<title>By: JKS</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/07/you-cant-say-that-in-church/#comment-97626</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JKS]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 16:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4050#comment-97626</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t do much self-censoring about doubts.  I just don&#039;t have a lot of doubts.
I am pretty open at church and with ward members.  I think it is important to not give off a &quot;perfect&quot; image, so I like to keep it real.  My comments at church are about real life.

I think that church is a place to come together to try to help each other live the gospel.  There is an assumption that the people around you are anxiously engaged in trying to live the gospel, despite their struggles.  I do not think it is appropriate for people to make comments that show an attitude of NOT wanting to live the gospel.  I also think that the different meetings and different class sizes and different teachers make a variety of church experiences.  Sometimes you just listen, sometimes you can make occasional comments, sometimes you can get in an involved discussion.  Sometimes, of course, you are teaching the youth or primary.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t do much self-censoring about doubts.  I just don&#8217;t have a lot of doubts.<br />
I am pretty open at church and with ward members.  I think it is important to not give off a &#8220;perfect&#8221; image, so I like to keep it real.  My comments at church are about real life.</p>
<p>I think that church is a place to come together to try to help each other live the gospel.  There is an assumption that the people around you are anxiously engaged in trying to live the gospel, despite their struggles.  I do not think it is appropriate for people to make comments that show an attitude of NOT wanting to live the gospel.  I also think that the different meetings and different class sizes and different teachers make a variety of church experiences.  Sometimes you just listen, sometimes you can make occasional comments, sometimes you can get in an involved discussion.  Sometimes, of course, you are teaching the youth or primary.</p>
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		<title>By: FHL</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/07/you-cant-say-that-in-church/#comment-97625</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[FHL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:13:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4050#comment-97625</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rebecca, I just wanted to say that I have so enjoyed your recent blogs. Definitely a breath of fresh air, all the way from the other side of the pond. =)

&gt;I was about to say that I hate censoring myself, but that
&gt; isn’t really true.

And yet another instance of self-censoring. (Stupid censor!)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rebecca, I just wanted to say that I have so enjoyed your recent blogs. Definitely a breath of fresh air, all the way from the other side of the pond. =)</p>
<p>&gt;I was about to say that I hate censoring myself, but that<br />
&gt; isn’t really true.</p>
<p>And yet another instance of self-censoring. (Stupid censor!)</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Willey</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/07/you-cant-say-that-in-church/#comment-97624</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Willey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 20:54:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4050#comment-97624</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;Not everything that I think is worth saying—meaning that it’s not worth the consequences of me saying it. . . . Self-censorship is a skill we should all strive to develop. When you’re sitting there wondering, “Should I say this or not say this?” the correct answer is almost always, “Don’t say it.” I stand by that statement. .&lt;/em&gt;

I whole-heartedly agree.  I think one of the hardest issues with self censorship is what is motivating it.  As with many things, I think purity of motive is a key consideration, but for some reason, the intersection between &quot;an eye single to the glory&quot; and self-expression/censorship is particularly hard for me.  If I have something controversial to say, should I &lt;em&gt;say&lt;/em&gt; it becuase it might help someone?  Or should I &lt;em&gt;not say &lt;/em&gt;it because I just want to appear smart/complicated/spohisticated?  Or should I &lt;em&gt;say&lt;/em&gt; it because the only reason not to is my fear that I will be perceived as the ward crackpot?  Am I just a victim of the &quot;true-but-not-useful&quot; culture, or is this a really complicated issue in a faith community?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Not everything that I think is worth saying—meaning that it’s not worth the consequences of me saying it. . . . Self-censorship is a skill we should all strive to develop. When you’re sitting there wondering, “Should I say this or not say this?” the correct answer is almost always, “Don’t say it.” I stand by that statement. .</em></p>
<p>I whole-heartedly agree.  I think one of the hardest issues with self censorship is what is motivating it.  As with many things, I think purity of motive is a key consideration, but for some reason, the intersection between &#8220;an eye single to the glory&#8221; and self-expression/censorship is particularly hard for me.  If I have something controversial to say, should I <em>say</em> it becuase it might help someone?  Or should I <em>not say </em>it because I just want to appear smart/complicated/spohisticated?  Or should I <em>say</em> it because the only reason not to is my fear that I will be perceived as the ward crackpot?  Am I just a victim of the &#8220;true-but-not-useful&#8221; culture, or is this a really complicated issue in a faith community?</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca J (madhousewife)</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/07/you-cant-say-that-in-church/#comment-97623</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rebecca J (madhousewife)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4050#comment-97623</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We had some friends who joined the church and subsequently began to feel overwhelmed by all the expectations.  I was talking to the husband, who very candidly told me all his doubts and concerns, and I knew that I didn&#039;t have any answers for him.  All I could do was sympathize because I shared a lot of those same doubts and concerns, and I told him so.  I certainly didn&#039;t want to help him leave the church.  I wanted to help him stay.  I thought it would be easier for him (and his wife) if they didn&#039;t feel like it had to be all or nothing.

Well, they eventually did leave the church--the &quot;nothing&quot; option--but that was their choice.  I don&#039;t regret the way I handled that conversation at all.  Of course I&#039;m sorry that they left, but I would be sorrier if I hadn&#039;t dealt with him honestly as a friend.  Because he probably still would have left, but he would have done so with an inaccurate picture of what a &quot;real&quot; Mormon is.  Real Mormons are all kinds.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We had some friends who joined the church and subsequently began to feel overwhelmed by all the expectations.  I was talking to the husband, who very candidly told me all his doubts and concerns, and I knew that I didn&#8217;t have any answers for him.  All I could do was sympathize because I shared a lot of those same doubts and concerns, and I told him so.  I certainly didn&#8217;t want to help him leave the church.  I wanted to help him stay.  I thought it would be easier for him (and his wife) if they didn&#8217;t feel like it had to be all or nothing.</p>
<p>Well, they eventually did leave the church&#8211;the &#8220;nothing&#8221; option&#8211;but that was their choice.  I don&#8217;t regret the way I handled that conversation at all.  Of course I&#8217;m sorry that they left, but I would be sorrier if I hadn&#8217;t dealt with him honestly as a friend.  Because he probably still would have left, but he would have done so with an inaccurate picture of what a &#8220;real&#8221; Mormon is.  Real Mormons are all kinds.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/07/you-cant-say-that-in-church/#comment-97622</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4050#comment-97622</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I taught in Elder&#039;s quorum I liked to inject just enough devil&#039;s advocacy into my lessons to make the class squirm in their seats and feel just uncomfortable enough to actually have to justify and assert their beliefs rather than just passively waiting for the hour to end.  In retrospect, maybe I shouldn&#039;t have done that so much, but I tried to follow the spirit in my teaching and not go overboard.  It seems that in our lessons we ought to be getting something that will actually help us out there in reality instead of just hearing the same dry quotes on charity or the tentacles of divine providence.  I would have been glad on many occasions to have a Brother DP in the class to at least save it from triviality.

One lesson I enjoyed most of all was about the temple.  The lesson material itself was standard fare: blessings of attendance, how the temple is the pinnacle of earthly worship, that sort of thing.  Very fluffy and airy stuff.  I had planned a twist on the lesson, but when I got to class, it turned out that we had some special guests: the stake president and one of his counselors, all three members of the bishopric, and a high councilman.  I gave my lesson as planned anyway.

&quot;Let&#039;s face it, Brethren,&quot; I said, &quot;The temple is boring.&quot;

Pragmatism ensued.  It was awesome.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I taught in Elder&#8217;s quorum I liked to inject just enough devil&#8217;s advocacy into my lessons to make the class squirm in their seats and feel just uncomfortable enough to actually have to justify and assert their beliefs rather than just passively waiting for the hour to end.  In retrospect, maybe I shouldn&#8217;t have done that so much, but I tried to follow the spirit in my teaching and not go overboard.  It seems that in our lessons we ought to be getting something that will actually help us out there in reality instead of just hearing the same dry quotes on charity or the tentacles of divine providence.  I would have been glad on many occasions to have a Brother DP in the class to at least save it from triviality.</p>
<p>One lesson I enjoyed most of all was about the temple.  The lesson material itself was standard fare: blessings of attendance, how the temple is the pinnacle of earthly worship, that sort of thing.  Very fluffy and airy stuff.  I had planned a twist on the lesson, but when I got to class, it turned out that we had some special guests: the stake president and one of his counselors, all three members of the bishopric, and a high councilman.  I gave my lesson as planned anyway.</p>
<p>&#8220;Let&#8217;s face it, Brethren,&#8221; I said, &#8220;The temple is boring.&#8221;</p>
<p>Pragmatism ensued.  It was awesome.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Graham</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/07/you-cant-say-that-in-church/#comment-97621</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Graham]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4050#comment-97621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The saddest I have been in Gospel Doctrine class was in my current ward when our Elders&#039; Quorum president started out his remarks by apologizing.  He then went on to say something which had been taught by 1 or more Church presidents.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The saddest I have been in Gospel Doctrine class was in my current ward when our Elders&#8217; Quorum president started out his remarks by apologizing.  He then went on to say something which had been taught by 1 or more Church presidents.</p>
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		<title>By: sscenter</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/07/you-cant-say-that-in-church/#comment-97620</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sscenter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4050#comment-97620</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wonder if smaller classes would help.  I live in a moderate sized ward and about fifty or so (I&#039;ve never counted) attend Gospel doctrine each week.  With that number it is just not really practical to expect a strong engagind conversations.  During elder&#039;s quorum, the number reduces quite a bit and I find that there is much more open discussion.

consequently, I hate making comments in GD.  It is just too difficult to make meaningful statements with that many people half of whom want to interject and all want to make different points.  At the same time, I love elder&#039;s quorum.  The smaller number of people really encourages the oppurtunities to explore what is being said.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if smaller classes would help.  I live in a moderate sized ward and about fifty or so (I&#8217;ve never counted) attend Gospel doctrine each week.  With that number it is just not really practical to expect a strong engagind conversations.  During elder&#8217;s quorum, the number reduces quite a bit and I find that there is much more open discussion.</p>
<p>consequently, I hate making comments in GD.  It is just too difficult to make meaningful statements with that many people half of whom want to interject and all want to make different points.  At the same time, I love elder&#8217;s quorum.  The smaller number of people really encourages the oppurtunities to explore what is being said.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/07/you-cant-say-that-in-church/#comment-97619</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4050#comment-97619</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just read scriptures and self-learn when there are no rampages. The self-sensored refrains I&#039;ve heard and heard until they just put me fast asleep. It is often where the water runs deep and it swirls in an eddy that the big fish wait.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just read scriptures and self-learn when there are no rampages. The self-sensored refrains I&#8217;ve heard and heard until they just put me fast asleep. It is often where the water runs deep and it swirls in an eddy that the big fish wait.</p>
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