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	<title>Comments on: Negotiating modesty (a series of random events)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: JA Benson</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/#comment-97751</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JA Benson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 16:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4055#comment-97751</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#121 Obi-wan your post made me smile.  Teens can be such a  challenge!! Take heart, sometimes teens like to say/do shocking things to get our goat.

#114 Norbert and  #115 Ray. My comments were for adults I don&#039;t use words like that with my kids. Many parents have lamented over the last ten or so years the shrinking availability of truly childlike fashion for children. A lot of the fashion for little girls are not age appropriate. Conversely adults will take children&#039;s styles and make them seductive.  This is all a part of sexualizing  children.  For me, I think that dressing children like children is modesty.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#121 Obi-wan your post made me smile.  Teens can be such a  challenge!! Take heart, sometimes teens like to say/do shocking things to get our goat.</p>
<p>#114 Norbert and  #115 Ray. My comments were for adults I don&#8217;t use words like that with my kids. Many parents have lamented over the last ten or so years the shrinking availability of truly childlike fashion for children. A lot of the fashion for little girls are not age appropriate. Conversely adults will take children&#8217;s styles and make them seductive.  This is all a part of sexualizing  children.  For me, I think that dressing children like children is modesty.</p>
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		<title>By: Jami</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/#comment-97629</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jami]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 02:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4055#comment-97629</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I love it when people bring real kid quotes into these discussions. Keeps us grounded.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love it when people bring real kid quotes into these discussions. Keeps us grounded.</p>
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		<title>By: obi-wan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/#comment-97730</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[obi-wan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4055#comment-97730</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;The teenage yeats are fast approaching for us. We hope our children will remember when they are on there own.&lt;/i&gt;

I have a newsflash for you.

When our daughters were small, we made a point of dressing them &quot;modestly.&quot;  No sundresses.  No short skirts.  No tank tops.  We wanted them to be accustomed to clothing that was compatable with the temple garment when they got older.

Now they are in their teenage years.  They buy their own clothes.  Guess what?  They wear sundresses, tank tops, and short skirts, especially when the weather is hot.

Dressing your kids like they wear garments when they are young does not ensure that they will keep dressing that way when they are older.  If anything, it may very well incline them the other way.

&lt;i&gt;We try to use that standard as a springboard into discussions about chastity, etc.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, so do we.  We had a discussion about this just the other day when our youngest asked (and I quote), &quot;Mom, why do you wear that stupid-looking underwear?&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The teenage yeats are fast approaching for us. We hope our children will remember when they are on there own.</i></p>
<p>I have a newsflash for you.</p>
<p>When our daughters were small, we made a point of dressing them &#8220;modestly.&#8221;  No sundresses.  No short skirts.  No tank tops.  We wanted them to be accustomed to clothing that was compatable with the temple garment when they got older.</p>
<p>Now they are in their teenage years.  They buy their own clothes.  Guess what?  They wear sundresses, tank tops, and short skirts, especially when the weather is hot.</p>
<p>Dressing your kids like they wear garments when they are young does not ensure that they will keep dressing that way when they are older.  If anything, it may very well incline them the other way.</p>
<p><i>We try to use that standard as a springboard into discussions about chastity, etc.</i></p>
<p>Yes, so do we.  We had a discussion about this just the other day when our youngest asked (and I quote), &#8220;Mom, why do you wear that stupid-looking underwear?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Clayton</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/#comment-97729</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clayton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 22:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I apologize for my late reply.  We recently returned home from camping in the Oregon mountains.  I highly recommend it.

A reply to # 13, cowboy:

The fact that the temple garments were once to the wrists and ankles back in the day to me is not relavent.  I live in the hear an now. For the most part, clothes which can be worn without modifying the garment will be modest.  There has been some discussion regarding tight fitting clothing to which I would agree that this can be just as provocative as other styles.  But, the use of the garment as a standard is still a very good starting point.  I believe that the temple is the symbol of our membership, and becoming and/or remaining worthy of a recommend is something that Latter-day Saints should aspire too. One interpretation of the section on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lds.org/youthresources/pdf/ForStrengYouth36550.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dress and Appearance&lt;/a&gt; in For the Strength of Youth says as much, specifically where it states:

&lt;em&gt;Someday you will receive your endowment in the temple. Your dress and behavior should help you prepare for that sacred time. &lt;/em&gt;

Martin #16:

I apply those same principles to my son as well.  It is just as important for him to be modest as it is for my daughters (and to encourage the young women with whom he will associate with to be modest as well).  He is only 4 years old, so we have not many discussions about this.  When the time comes, however, I will encourage him to work in the yard with a t-shirt (for modesty reasons as well as medical reasons too--he is fair skinned and childhood sunburns are the number one risk factor for melanoma and other skin cancers).  If he plays a pick-up game of basketball where it is shirts and skins, and he is picked as a skin, I think it that is OK.  There are many &quot;what if&quot; situations that could be brought up.  In each, I (as do others on this board) will try to follow the spirit in applying the principles we have been taught.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I apologize for my late reply.  We recently returned home from camping in the Oregon mountains.  I highly recommend it.</p>
<p>A reply to # 13, cowboy:</p>
<p>The fact that the temple garments were once to the wrists and ankles back in the day to me is not relavent.  I live in the hear an now. For the most part, clothes which can be worn without modifying the garment will be modest.  There has been some discussion regarding tight fitting clothing to which I would agree that this can be just as provocative as other styles.  But, the use of the garment as a standard is still a very good starting point.  I believe that the temple is the symbol of our membership, and becoming and/or remaining worthy of a recommend is something that Latter-day Saints should aspire too. One interpretation of the section on <a href="http://www.lds.org/youthresources/pdf/ForStrengYouth36550.pdf" rel="nofollow">Dress and Appearance</a> in For the Strength of Youth says as much, specifically where it states:</p>
<p><em>Someday you will receive your endowment in the temple. Your dress and behavior should help you prepare for that sacred time. </em></p>
<p>Martin #16:</p>
<p>I apply those same principles to my son as well.  It is just as important for him to be modest as it is for my daughters (and to encourage the young women with whom he will associate with to be modest as well).  He is only 4 years old, so we have not many discussions about this.  When the time comes, however, I will encourage him to work in the yard with a t-shirt (for modesty reasons as well as medical reasons too&#8211;he is fair skinned and childhood sunburns are the number one risk factor for melanoma and other skin cancers).  If he plays a pick-up game of basketball where it is shirts and skins, and he is picked as a skin, I think it that is OK.  There are many &#8220;what if&#8221; situations that could be brought up.  In each, I (as do others on this board) will try to follow the spirit in applying the principles we have been taught.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Willey</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/#comment-97750</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Willey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4055#comment-97750</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree.  See my comment 92.  YW are hit much harder with modesty than YM, which is unfortunate.  Not to beat a dead horse, but I think YW are under much more pressure to to conform to overly sexualized images.  That does not, however, mean that YM should not also be taught to dress and act with modesty.  For what it is worth, I think the YM get lots of teaching on chastity, controlling thoughts, and treating  women with respect.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree.  See my comment 92.  YW are hit much harder with modesty than YM, which is unfortunate.  Not to beat a dead horse, but I think YW are under much more pressure to to conform to overly sexualized images.  That does not, however, mean that YM should not also be taught to dress and act with modesty.  For what it is worth, I think the YM get lots of teaching on chastity, controlling thoughts, and treating  women with respect.</p>
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		<title>By: Lizzy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/#comment-97749</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lizzy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4055#comment-97749</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MW, I agree however I find in Church way too much emphasis is put on the YW to dress a certain way not for the appropriateness of doing so but so as not to give the boys the wrong idea(s). I would like to see it approached as a matter of responsibility to both the YW and YM.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MW, I agree however I find in Church way too much emphasis is put on the YW to dress a certain way not for the appropriateness of doing so but so as not to give the boys the wrong idea(s). I would like to see it approached as a matter of responsibility to both the YW and YM.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Willey</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/#comment-97748</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Willey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4055#comment-97748</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lizzy:  I think one of Rebecca J&#039;s points is that that modesty actually gives women control by reducing unwanted sexual attention from men generally.  Doesn&#039;t that make modesty a matter of a woman taking at least some responsibility for how she is perceived (which to me seems fair), in addition to asking men to take responsibility for how they act (which, of course, also seems fair)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lizzy:  I think one of Rebecca J&#8217;s points is that that modesty actually gives women control by reducing unwanted sexual attention from men generally.  Doesn&#8217;t that make modesty a matter of a woman taking at least some responsibility for how she is perceived (which to me seems fair), in addition to asking men to take responsibility for how they act (which, of course, also seems fair)?</p>
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		<title>By: Lizzy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/#comment-97747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lizzy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not opposed to modesty in dress. I do think, as many others have mentioned before that individuals&#039; interpretation of that and what is acceptable for them varies wildly. Personally I don&#039;t think it is immodest to have ones shoulders visible. I find a plunging neckline way more immodest and I would think more distracting because right or wrong our culture has sexualised breasts considerably more than shoulders. My opinion. I agree with  104 &amp; 106 my daughter wearing a sun dress or a dress that doesn&#039;t go below the knees should be my family&#039;s business. A member in my ward insists that her girls dress as if wearing garments. I disagree but as long as she doesn&#039;t insist my daughter do the same I&#039;m ok with her choice for her.
I have read numerous times that men and women are wired differently, men are sexually more responsive to visual stimulation than women. I can concede that but I think it is just plain wrong to put the burden of responsibility on girls to dress in a manner to not stimulate the boys or women to distract the men. What about personal responsibility to develop and have  self control?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not opposed to modesty in dress. I do think, as many others have mentioned before that individuals&#8217; interpretation of that and what is acceptable for them varies wildly. Personally I don&#8217;t think it is immodest to have ones shoulders visible. I find a plunging neckline way more immodest and I would think more distracting because right or wrong our culture has sexualised breasts considerably more than shoulders. My opinion. I agree with  104 &amp; 106 my daughter wearing a sun dress or a dress that doesn&#8217;t go below the knees should be my family&#8217;s business. A member in my ward insists that her girls dress as if wearing garments. I disagree but as long as she doesn&#8217;t insist my daughter do the same I&#8217;m ok with her choice for her.<br />
I have read numerous times that men and women are wired differently, men are sexually more responsive to visual stimulation than women. I can concede that but I think it is just plain wrong to put the burden of responsibility on girls to dress in a manner to not stimulate the boys or women to distract the men. What about personal responsibility to develop and have  self control?</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/#comment-97746</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 05:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4055#comment-97746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amen, Norbert.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen, Norbert.</p>
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		<title>By: Norbert</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/11/negotiating-modesty-a-series-of-random-events/#comment-97745</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Norbert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 04:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4055#comment-97745</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[IMHO, if you are using the word &#039;prostitute&#039; or anything like it in the discussion of modesty, you&#039;re approaching it badly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMHO, if you are using the word &#8216;prostitute&#8217; or anything like it in the discussion of modesty, you&#8217;re approaching it badly.</p>
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