Comments on: “God broke his covenant.”

By: Ned

Ned — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 07:24:39 +0000

Tatiana,
Your post was excellent and inspiring. God sent us to this earth to see how we would conduct ourselves, both when we have good conditions and when we have bad conditions. After WWII, a man (who name I have temporarily forgot) wrote a book about how some people in the Jewish work prisons complained while others sought to help others. He wrote that wherever God puts us, with good people or bad people, we should show that we are good people and help others. That was the message of Job in the OT and of Jesus and the Apostles in the NT.

By: Christopher Smith

Christopher Smith — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 07:13:36 +0000

I don’t know if this was in the play, but in Wiesel’s version, the indictment of God is not the end of the narrative. After judgment is pronounced and there is a long silence, the rabbi who had pronounced God guilty said, “Come, my friends, we have a minyan – it is time to pray Maariv (the evening prayer service).” And everyone gathered around, and they prayed.

By: Bruce

Bruce — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:03:19 +0000

Yes, profoundly lucky and blessed.

By: Margaret Young

Margaret Young — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:22:07 +0000

Bruce, you are so lucky to have a wife who sends you links to interesting posts she must know you won’t be able to resist. Aren’t you.

By: Bruce

Bruce — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 00:26:36 +0000

As usual, my wife Margaret sent me a link urging me to read this. I’ve done so very quickly (so my apologies if I missed anything essential).

Just a couple of quick comments: (1) I’m still feeling troubled by comment #3 (“I’m waiting for the day somebody bears testimony that God lives and is just because He gives us what we deserve”). I believe God lives; I know he is loving and just. But isn’t the whole point of atonement that he offers us MORE than we deserve? As Shakespeare had Hamlet put it: “Give every man according to his deserts, and who shall ‘scape whipping?” Or as he had Portia put it: “In the course of justice [i.e., mere justice, untempered by mercy], none of us should see salvation.”

(2) I find many of the comments insightful and thought provoking (even the ones some call “despicable”). It’s pretty clear that none of us–including those with the most insightful or moving comments–fully understands this problem of suffering. In some respects, the problem appears to be an unfathomable mystery. Yet some of those who have commented reject out of hand certain explanations (such as that God might use suffering as a scourge or to help bring about some greater good) while not rejecting other explanations (that God is helpless, that God has abandoned some of his children, etc.).

Since all of us are in a state of relatively abysmal ignorance, I think we might do well to be more cautious in deciding what is possible and what isn’t. I worry that we may cut ourselves off from deeper understanding by too easily dismissing anything we initially find offensive. As I read him, Ivan Karamazov had that very tendency: because he found the suffering of innocents so disturbing, he rejected God and God’s world rather than humble himself enough to at least consider that it all might somehow make sense, or at least be truly and fully redeemable. He chose despair over redemption because he couldn’t make sense of redemption.

On the other hand, I also believe any potentially “despicable” explanation should certainly be prefaced by a humble acknowledgement of uncertainty and an affirmation of charity–we take no delight in the destruction of our fellow beings (D&C 109:43), and all we understand about God would indicate that he doesn’t either.

I’ve had more to say on the problem of evil at http://faceofother.blogspot.com/2008/04/problem-of-evil.html.

By: Tatiana

Tatiana — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 01:46:05 +0000

Okay, I understand now. Thanks for the explanation. To me key-finding is not the same thing as camp-destroying or regime-toppling or whatever would have been required for God to step in to stop the holocaust. I don’t want to sound like I understand everything, but the way I reconcile it in my own mind is that God will give information to those who ask for it and are ready to receive it, in the form of nudges or the still small voice. That information might be about anything at all that matters to the person. It doesn’t have to be something important on a grand scale. On the scale of the cosmos as a whole, it’s hard to know what counts as important, really, isn’t it? Keys or kingdoms, are they really that different against the backdrop of galaxies uncountable?

So he might have answered prayers by giving someone inspiration of how they can convince the Nazi soldier to spare their daughter. Or he might touch the hearts of neighbors to help hide Jews from the soldiers when they come to get them. He might speak comfort to the hearts of the tormented. Or he might urge our consciences to call for our leaders to allow the immigration of people at risk. In fact, he’s likely doing all those things now as regards people in Darfur, innocent villagers in remote Pakistani mountains, and all the places of war and starvation today. I hope this doesn’t come across as presumptuous or dismissive. It’s hard to even speak of these things, they’re so heartrending. And are we heeding the promptings we’re getting now? I don’t know. But when I read Elie Wiesel’s speeches, I feel sure I don’t do enough. =(

There are miracles done all the time, and yet they don’t abridge anyone’s agency, or change wholesale the nature of our societies or the conditions under which people live. It’s really clear that God is urging us all the time to right wrongs, to give of our substance to those in need, and to feel it ourselves whenever the least of his children are harmed. He urges us not to be indifferent to suffering. Then it’s up to us to actually ameliorate the suffering.

So I guess when God tells me where to find my keys, which he won’t always do when I ask for it, but sometimes does, I guess he’s not neglecting to feed some starving child at the same time, he’s actually nudging all of us to do the feeding. We have a sacred trust not to fail him.

By: Matt W.

Matt W. — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:31:17 +0000

Gil: I thought the same thing.

By: Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:05:29 +0000

Jeffrey Holland gave a great talk on theodicy last night at the CES Fireside. It fits well with this topic.

By: Ray

Ray — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:30:57 +0000

In other words, Hellmut, “Pray as if everything depends on God, but act as if everything depends on you.” – or, “Act as if you were God.” Those are very interesting, very orthodox, Mormon statements.

By: john f.

john f. — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:27:33 +0000

As Latter-day Saints we are blessed that the Book of Mormon touches somewhat on issues of theodicy, such as through the episode of Ammonihah in which Amulek watched his wives and children and the wives and children of other Christians, thrown into the fire because of his religious beliefs.

Also, we are aware that our ancestors’ fervent beliefs in the Restored Gospel and acceptance of latter-day covenants did not spare them from rape, pillage, and forced migration under threat of extermination — and the many sufferings on the way into their exile that they endured, which included burying children,.

Still, this does not change the fact that this is difficult material and the questions about the logic behind it challenge (or should challenge) the faith of the most devout.