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	<title>Comments on: A letter to a friend: Joseph Smith polygamy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/#comment-65567</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4144#comment-65567</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK folks, I think this thread has wound down.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK folks, I think this thread has wound down.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Average Member Laura</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/#comment-65566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Average Member Laura]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4144#comment-65566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#80 Yeah Howard. But what still amazes me is how we sometimes gain testimonies by baring them. It&#039;s really bizarre!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#80 Yeah Howard. But what still amazes me is how we sometimes gain testimonies by baring them. It&#8217;s really bizarre!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/#comment-65565</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4144#comment-65565</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps, adcama, but what other alternatives would have made everybody a truly unique ethnic group in a very real, genealogical way?  It seems to me, in reading the materials of the time, that Joseph was almost obsessed with the idea of the universal sealing of his people into a distinct community and people of God.  The dynastic sealings and adoptions are particularly fascinating in this regard.  Also, it&#039;s hard to imagine anything else that would have gotten the early saints driven into their own Promised Land and allowed them to solidify into their own &quot;ethnic group&quot; for so long.

The following is an over-simplification, but it appears to me that the more heavenly visionary Joseph (the seer) was fixated on the eternal teaching of a universally sealed family of God (the community of Christ), while the more earthly visionary Brigham (the organizer) was fixated on building a new House of Israel (the kingdom of God) through obvious blood connections.  Polygamy fits well into both of those visions, and by the end of the 19th Century I think it had solidified both visions in a very real way.

Assuming from the start that polygamy in and of itself is a terrible thing makes it hard to justify in any way; removing that assumption makes it much easier - even if it still is easy to criticize certain aspects or results.  I choose not to make that assumption.

So, I simply don&#039;t classify it as a mistake.  I don&#039;t think the implementation was handled very well, and I certainly don&#039;t think Joseph understood it perfectly until the last few years of his life (if then), but I don&#039;t see it as a mistake.  I also realize I am working from the soapbox of hindsight, so I try to keep 1 Corin. 13 in mind and take as charitable a view as possible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps, adcama, but what other alternatives would have made everybody a truly unique ethnic group in a very real, genealogical way?  It seems to me, in reading the materials of the time, that Joseph was almost obsessed with the idea of the universal sealing of his people into a distinct community and people of God.  The dynastic sealings and adoptions are particularly fascinating in this regard.  Also, it&#8217;s hard to imagine anything else that would have gotten the early saints driven into their own Promised Land and allowed them to solidify into their own &#8220;ethnic group&#8221; for so long.</p>
<p>The following is an over-simplification, but it appears to me that the more heavenly visionary Joseph (the seer) was fixated on the eternal teaching of a universally sealed family of God (the community of Christ), while the more earthly visionary Brigham (the organizer) was fixated on building a new House of Israel (the kingdom of God) through obvious blood connections.  Polygamy fits well into both of those visions, and by the end of the 19th Century I think it had solidified both visions in a very real way.</p>
<p>Assuming from the start that polygamy in and of itself is a terrible thing makes it hard to justify in any way; removing that assumption makes it much easier &#8211; even if it still is easy to criticize certain aspects or results.  I choose not to make that assumption.</p>
<p>So, I simply don&#8217;t classify it as a mistake.  I don&#8217;t think the implementation was handled very well, and I certainly don&#8217;t think Joseph understood it perfectly until the last few years of his life (if then), but I don&#8217;t see it as a mistake.  I also realize I am working from the soapbox of hindsight, so I try to keep 1 Corin. 13 in mind and take as charitable a view as possible.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/#comment-65564</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Howard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4144#comment-65564</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bob,
Sure Polygamy occurred but the faith-based issue is; was it of God or man?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob,<br />
Sure Polygamy occurred but the faith-based issue is; was it of God or man?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/#comment-65563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4144#comment-65563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#85: &quot;These issues are not clear-cut they are largely faith-based&quot;. This is a fair statement to me, and I don&#039;t challenge it. The only &#039;problem&#039; I have is EVERYONE, Mormon or non-Mormon, agrees that Polygamy DID occur in reality, and therefore goes beyond just a &#039;faith based issue&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#85: &#8220;These issues are not clear-cut they are largely faith-based&#8221;. This is a fair statement to me, and I don&#8217;t challenge it. The only &#8216;problem&#8217; I have is EVERYONE, Mormon or non-Mormon, agrees that Polygamy DID occur in reality, and therefore goes beyond just a &#8216;faith based issue&#8217;.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: adcama</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/#comment-65562</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[adcama]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:12:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4144#comment-65562</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, it&#039;s possible polygamy was needed to &#039;raise up seed&#039;, but you gotta admit, there were surely other - perhaps less eyebrow raising - ways to raise a core group of saints.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it&#8217;s possible polygamy was needed to &#8216;raise up seed&#8217;, but you gotta admit, there were surely other &#8211; perhaps less eyebrow raising &#8211; ways to raise a core group of saints.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/#comment-65561</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Howard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4144#comment-65561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ray,
Yes in a public forum it is very difficult to tell who you are dealing with.

But, Cowboy’s comments seemed pretty clear and consistent to me.  I completely agree with Kaimi’s point with regard to chains of reasoning, but not everyone has been trained in logic.

Maybe our default position should be to extend the benefit of doubt.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray,<br />
Yes in a public forum it is very difficult to tell who you are dealing with.</p>
<p>But, Cowboy’s comments seemed pretty clear and consistent to me.  I completely agree with Kaimi’s point with regard to chains of reasoning, but not everyone has been trained in logic.</p>
<p>Maybe our default position should be to extend the benefit of doubt.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jothan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/#comment-65560</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jothan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 13:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4144#comment-65560</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In an effort to offer some alternative perspective to stimulate thought, meditation and personnal research and study and not to debate or argue I offer the following thoughts to consider.

Might the issue or concerns of Polygny being right or wrong boil down to it being adultery or not, a violation of the law of chastity or not?

Might we ponder what our own personal beliefs or definitions of what adultery and the law of chastity are?

How does God define and apply adultery or the law of chastity?  How were they defined and applied anciently?  How do these ancient definitions compare to our modern and puritanical ideal and cultural definitions?

What is the difference between plural marriage and polygny?   Is plural marriage essentially covenant based under the authority of God and polygny not necessarily so?

What are the pro&#039;s and con&#039;s of monogyny vs the pro&#039;s and con&#039;s of polygny?

Happy researching and follow the spirit.  Be open to all available resources to wherever the spirit may guide.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In an effort to offer some alternative perspective to stimulate thought, meditation and personnal research and study and not to debate or argue I offer the following thoughts to consider.</p>
<p>Might the issue or concerns of Polygny being right or wrong boil down to it being adultery or not, a violation of the law of chastity or not?</p>
<p>Might we ponder what our own personal beliefs or definitions of what adultery and the law of chastity are?</p>
<p>How does God define and apply adultery or the law of chastity?  How were they defined and applied anciently?  How do these ancient definitions compare to our modern and puritanical ideal and cultural definitions?</p>
<p>What is the difference between plural marriage and polygny?   Is plural marriage essentially covenant based under the authority of God and polygny not necessarily so?</p>
<p>What are the pro&#8217;s and con&#8217;s of monogyny vs the pro&#8217;s and con&#8217;s of polygny?</p>
<p>Happy researching and follow the spirit.  Be open to all available resources to wherever the spirit may guide.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/#comment-65559</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 13:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4144#comment-65559</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Shouldn’t we be treating them with the same charity we extend to investigators?&quot;

I agree, Howard - completely and without reservation.  However, I think that the problem in a forum like this is that it&#039;s hard to tell who&#039;s having a crisis of faith and who&#039;s just being a jerk or pounding their opposing and/or fundamentalist beliefs.  At some point, we all need to back away and let go if all we are doing is beating a dead horse.

I think this is a great place for those having a crisis of faith - but not for those who insists on being obnoxious or over-bearing about it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Shouldn’t we be treating them with the same charity we extend to investigators?&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree, Howard &#8211; completely and without reservation.  However, I think that the problem in a forum like this is that it&#8217;s hard to tell who&#8217;s having a crisis of faith and who&#8217;s just being a jerk or pounding their opposing and/or fundamentalist beliefs.  At some point, we all need to back away and let go if all we are doing is beating a dead horse.</p>
<p>I think this is a great place for those having a crisis of faith &#8211; but not for those who insists on being obnoxious or over-bearing about it.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/08/a-letter-to-a-friend-joseph-smith-polygamy/#comment-65558</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Howard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 13:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4144#comment-65558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[“Sensitive and complex” is code for &lt;em&gt;potentially emotionally volatile&lt;/em&gt;.

Since these issues are not clear-cut they are largely faith-based and the uncertainty of others can easily propagate cracks in our own beliefs and egos provoking defensiveness.

I’m thankful that the bloggernacle exists to allow us to work through these issues, but I worry about those in a crisis of faith.

Shouldn’t we be treating them with the same charity we extend to investigators?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Sensitive and complex” is code for <em>potentially emotionally volatile</em>.</p>
<p>Since these issues are not clear-cut they are largely faith-based and the uncertainty of others can easily propagate cracks in our own beliefs and egos provoking defensiveness.</p>
<p>I’m thankful that the bloggernacle exists to allow us to work through these issues, but I worry about those in a crisis of faith.</p>
<p>Shouldn’t we be treating them with the same charity we extend to investigators?</p>
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