<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Against Abortion</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2012 20:55:46 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/#comment-104575</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4160#comment-104575</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well played, sir.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well played, sir.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/#comment-104573</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam Greenwood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4160#comment-104573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[205th!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>205th!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: janeannechovy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/#comment-104571</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[janeannechovy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4160#comment-104571</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another late comment from me, I&#039;m afraid.  Hi to those who subscribed to the feed for these comments.  :)

I highly recommend the book Mother Nature by Sarah Blaffer Hrdy.  It&#039;s been published with a couple different subtitles--mine has &quot;Mothers, Infants, and Natural Selection.&quot;  It&#039;s a cross-species, cross-cultural look at the pressures, evolutionary and otherwise, brought to bear on mothering.  She doesn&#039;t shy away from the uncomfortable issues--like, that infanticide is still rather too (for western tastes) widely practiced in parts of the developing world.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another late comment from me, I&#8217;m afraid.  Hi to those who subscribed to the feed for these comments.  :)</p>
<p>I highly recommend the book Mother Nature by Sarah Blaffer Hrdy.  It&#8217;s been published with a couple different subtitles&#8211;mine has &#8220;Mothers, Infants, and Natural Selection.&#8221;  It&#8217;s a cross-species, cross-cultural look at the pressures, evolutionary and otherwise, brought to bear on mothering.  She doesn&#8217;t shy away from the uncomfortable issues&#8211;like, that infanticide is still rather too (for western tastes) widely practiced in parts of the developing world.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/#comment-104569</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 04:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4160#comment-104569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Moses was placed in a situation to be found in order to keep him from being killed.  What a terrible example of womanhood that mother was.  She shouldn&#039;t have &quot;abandoned&quot; him; she should have let him be killed.

*sigh*]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moses was placed in a situation to be found in order to keep him from being killed.  What a terrible example of womanhood that mother was.  She shouldn&#8217;t have &#8220;abandoned&#8221; him; she should have let him be killed.</p>
<p>*sigh*</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: djinn</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/#comment-104567</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[djinn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 03:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4160#comment-104567</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I did not read the article in MS, rather I&#039;ve poured over boring statistical reports; and, not surprisingly, I both agree and disagree with comment 200.  As far as I can tell, the time in the US that had the highest abortion rate was during the great depression, something like one in four women had them, in spite of the risk involved.  When I look at the data, what jumps out at me is the amount of female empowerment in a society; when abortions are outlawed, so, often are contraceptives; or at the least, contraceptives are much more difficult to get; (We&#039;re seeing the beginning of this here in the US and right here at BCC with the question of when &quot;personhood&quot; begins; at conception would outlaw many of the cheaper and more easily available birth control types) plus, the social consequences for an unwed birth weigh much more heavily on the mother.  It&#039;s a three-fer.

The Bible, you know, doesn&#039;t bother mentioning, except positively, the actual route women took in ancient times for unwanted births.   Remember Moses?  He was abandoned.  Think about it for a minute.  Was abandonment ever, uh, disallowed?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did not read the article in MS, rather I&#8217;ve poured over boring statistical reports; and, not surprisingly, I both agree and disagree with comment 200.  As far as I can tell, the time in the US that had the highest abortion rate was during the great depression, something like one in four women had them, in spite of the risk involved.  When I look at the data, what jumps out at me is the amount of female empowerment in a society; when abortions are outlawed, so, often are contraceptives; or at the least, contraceptives are much more difficult to get; (We&#8217;re seeing the beginning of this here in the US and right here at BCC with the question of when &#8220;personhood&#8221; begins; at conception would outlaw many of the cheaper and more easily available birth control types) plus, the social consequences for an unwed birth weigh much more heavily on the mother.  It&#8217;s a three-fer.</p>
<p>The Bible, you know, doesn&#8217;t bother mentioning, except positively, the actual route women took in ancient times for unwanted births.   Remember Moses?  He was abandoned.  Think about it for a minute.  Was abandonment ever, uh, disallowed?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Neal Kramer</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/#comment-104565</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neal Kramer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 19:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4160#comment-104565</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m late and always uncomfortable with this topic.

The passage in the D&amp;C, which Steve wondered about, is 59:6, Thou shalt not . . . not kill, nor do anything like unto it.&quot;

Elder Packer used the concept when discussing abortion.  I, being the language freak I am, tend to see the point of using the words as to imply that while abortion is not necessarily death as we have conventionally understood it, it is similar to killing.

As the pro-life movement, especially the Catholics, has come to see conception as the moment of God&#039;s creation of life, abortion has come to be seen as the taking of innocent life.

Elder Nelson&#039;s use of the metaphor of war against the defenseless begins to suggest that some LDS may believe that the spirit enters the body at the moment of conception.

But LDS theology of pre-mortal life, conception, birth, life, death, resurrection, and eternal life does not seem to me to allow us to say that abortion is any more than like unto killing.  It is therefore not the same as killing.

This, however, does not mean that the Lord has not prohibited its broad and general practice.

None of this helps with the idea that when building a state/society, people have the responsibility to themselves to craft laws and regulations that provide an environment in which life can flourish and the good can be pursued.  Should the people, who make up a state, intervene on behalf of the defenseless unborn?  If so, what form would the intervention take?  How do idealism and pragmatism converge so as to build a hopeful and happy society? It must also be forcefully stated that defenseless women on whom pregnancy has been forced by biological necessity or anything else that denies choice must be a profound part of this argument.  Conventional views about pregnancy as punishment for sin no longer belong in the world of moral thinking this very modern debate has created.

We have not thought hard enough and well enough to know the answers to the questions these evolving views of life, choice, responsibility, and death have raised.  But the way we answer questions like these will tell us a lot about what we think a good life is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m late and always uncomfortable with this topic.</p>
<p>The passage in the D&amp;C, which Steve wondered about, is 59:6, Thou shalt not . . . not kill, nor do anything like unto it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Elder Packer used the concept when discussing abortion.  I, being the language freak I am, tend to see the point of using the words as to imply that while abortion is not necessarily death as we have conventionally understood it, it is similar to killing.</p>
<p>As the pro-life movement, especially the Catholics, has come to see conception as the moment of God&#8217;s creation of life, abortion has come to be seen as the taking of innocent life.</p>
<p>Elder Nelson&#8217;s use of the metaphor of war against the defenseless begins to suggest that some LDS may believe that the spirit enters the body at the moment of conception.</p>
<p>But LDS theology of pre-mortal life, conception, birth, life, death, resurrection, and eternal life does not seem to me to allow us to say that abortion is any more than like unto killing.  It is therefore not the same as killing.</p>
<p>This, however, does not mean that the Lord has not prohibited its broad and general practice.</p>
<p>None of this helps with the idea that when building a state/society, people have the responsibility to themselves to craft laws and regulations that provide an environment in which life can flourish and the good can be pursued.  Should the people, who make up a state, intervene on behalf of the defenseless unborn?  If so, what form would the intervention take?  How do idealism and pragmatism converge so as to build a hopeful and happy society? It must also be forcefully stated that defenseless women on whom pregnancy has been forced by biological necessity or anything else that denies choice must be a profound part of this argument.  Conventional views about pregnancy as punishment for sin no longer belong in the world of moral thinking this very modern debate has created.</p>
<p>We have not thought hard enough and well enough to know the answers to the questions these evolving views of life, choice, responsibility, and death have raised.  But the way we answer questions like these will tell us a lot about what we think a good life is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: janeannechovy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/#comment-104564</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[janeannechovy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 07:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4160#comment-104564</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[djinn, you must have read the same article in Ms Magazine that I did.  I don&#039;t think it&#039;s coincidental, though, that most of the countries with liberal abortion laws (and lower rates of unsafe abortions) also have strong, stable economies.  It can also be seen in analyzing US abortion statistics that the abortion rate has more to do with the health of the economy than with the state of laws prohibiting or limiting abortion.  Hence, abortion rates during the Clinton administration went down, as the economy was roaring along.

I, too, am dismayed at the number and vehemence of the men commenting on this thread.  I also agree with a comment by greenfrog (way up there--I mostly just skimmed the last half or more of the comments) that JNS is kind of playing by the rules of the anti-abortion side by focusing on the morality of abortion.  The problem with this approach is that no one, NO ONE, believes that abortion is good.  Even in the absence of religion-based or other morality, abortion is bad because it is inefficient and wasteful of maternal resources.  Women who choose abortion don&#039;t do so because they don&#039;t value life; they do it because they see it as their best alternative under the circumstances.  That is why punitive approaches to reducing abortion rates don&#039;t work--they don&#039;t address the desperation.

As Jessawhy pointed out when she quoted Bill Clinton, pro-choicers want to reduce abortions too.  They just want to do it using methods that WORK: comprehensive and age-appropriate sex education, low- or no-cost access to effective birth control, etc.  All that aside, the most effective way to reduce abortion rates in this country is to heal our economy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>djinn, you must have read the same article in Ms Magazine that I did.  I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s coincidental, though, that most of the countries with liberal abortion laws (and lower rates of unsafe abortions) also have strong, stable economies.  It can also be seen in analyzing US abortion statistics that the abortion rate has more to do with the health of the economy than with the state of laws prohibiting or limiting abortion.  Hence, abortion rates during the Clinton administration went down, as the economy was roaring along.</p>
<p>I, too, am dismayed at the number and vehemence of the men commenting on this thread.  I also agree with a comment by greenfrog (way up there&#8211;I mostly just skimmed the last half or more of the comments) that JNS is kind of playing by the rules of the anti-abortion side by focusing on the morality of abortion.  The problem with this approach is that no one, NO ONE, believes that abortion is good.  Even in the absence of religion-based or other morality, abortion is bad because it is inefficient and wasteful of maternal resources.  Women who choose abortion don&#8217;t do so because they don&#8217;t value life; they do it because they see it as their best alternative under the circumstances.  That is why punitive approaches to reducing abortion rates don&#8217;t work&#8211;they don&#8217;t address the desperation.</p>
<p>As Jessawhy pointed out when she quoted Bill Clinton, pro-choicers want to reduce abortions too.  They just want to do it using methods that WORK: comprehensive and age-appropriate sex education, low- or no-cost access to effective birth control, etc.  All that aside, the most effective way to reduce abortion rates in this country is to heal our economy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: djinn</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/#comment-104566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[djinn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 02:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4160#comment-104566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Curiously enough, the government stance on abortion does not seem to affect the number of abortions in any given country; it does affect the number of women who die during the procedure, however.  It does appear, in fact, that more liberal abortion laws produce fewer abortions, looking at countries like the Netherlands and Scandinavia.  So, abortion is paradoxical.  Want fewer?  Support it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curiously enough, the government stance on abortion does not seem to affect the number of abortions in any given country; it does affect the number of women who die during the procedure, however.  It does appear, in fact, that more liberal abortion laws produce fewer abortions, looking at countries like the Netherlands and Scandinavia.  So, abortion is paradoxical.  Want fewer?  Support it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/#comment-104563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam Greenwood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4160#comment-104563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not Orwellian.  Orwellite.  And as we all know, there are no &#039;ites&#039; among the Saints.  Therefore being pro-choice is against the gospel.  QED, hambone.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not Orwellian.  Orwellite.  And as we all know, there are no &#8216;ites&#8217; among the Saints.  Therefore being pro-choice is against the gospel.  QED, hambone.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/24/against-abortion/#comment-104562</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4160#comment-104562</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;some &lt;/em&gt;pro-lifers, Mark (actually, I&#039;m willing to limit it to just Greenwood and Liberalslayer).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>some </em>pro-lifers, Mark (actually, I&#8217;m willing to limit it to just Greenwood and Liberalslayer).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

