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	<title>Comments on: How Not to Understand Brigham Young</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/#comment-104707</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4254#comment-104707</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that&#039;s more than a bit unfair to the manual.  It&#039;s not perfect but it (a) gives a taste of what BY though on many issues people likely never encountered (b) may have gotten many interested enough to read some of his sermons.  (The Journal of Discourses is available online at BYU and a quick Google search would find it)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that&#8217;s more than a bit unfair to the manual.  It&#8217;s not perfect but it (a) gives a taste of what BY though on many issues people likely never encountered (b) may have gotten many interested enough to read some of his sermons.  (The Journal of Discourses is available online at BYU and a quick Google search would find it)</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/#comment-104705</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4254#comment-104705</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Clark, if you think that manual counts...  Let me use its technique on your comment #58:

I’d strongly disagree... Brigham... isn’t ultimately that interesting. Rather... Liberation Theology... would be tremendously helpful.  Likewise I think philosophical grounding... [is] often misleading ..., [b]oth in terms of American culture as well as broader thought... Joe Swick... has to draw things together.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark, if you think that manual counts&#8230;  Let me use its technique on your comment #58:</p>
<p>I’d strongly disagree&#8230; Brigham&#8230; isn’t ultimately that interesting. Rather&#8230; Liberation Theology&#8230; would be tremendously helpful.  Likewise I think philosophical grounding&#8230; [is] often misleading &#8230;, [b]oth in terms of American culture as well as broader thought&#8230; Joe Swick&#8230; has to draw things together.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/#comment-104703</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4254#comment-104703</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;His thousands of sermons, which did not speak on Adam-God or polygamy, seem to be ignored by Saint and Gentile, alike.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well there was that lesson manual from a few years ago...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>His thousands of sermons, which did not speak on Adam-God or polygamy, seem to be ignored by Saint and Gentile, alike.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Well there was that lesson manual from a few years ago&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/#comment-104701</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4254#comment-104701</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;But since Young himself was largely unaware of the categories of elite European religious thought, such training strikes me as not being the sine qua non of the matter.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;d strongly disagree.  I also don&#039;t think one need only be aware of the categories of &quot;elite European thought.&quot;  I&#039;m not saying look for theological influences on Brigham (which frankly isn&#039;t ultimately that interesting).  Rather one should seek understanding in many areas.  One interesting area that I think has been touched on at times is Liberation Theology.  (Hardly an elite European category)  But I think having some idea of Christology and so forth would be tremendously helpful.

Likewise I think philosophical grounding - especially in such things as pragmatism and idealism - is very necessary if one wants to understand what Brigham was grasping at.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;The problem is that most treatments have been fragmentary, focusing on one allegedly shocking area of divergence from the contemporary Mormon majority at a time as if different aspects of Young’s thought existed in airtight containers. We need integrative work that puts all of the pieces together and shows how it all fits, as well as how it drives the man’s pragmatic decisions.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, and these fragmentary studies are also often misleading precisely because they lack that more holistic grounding.  Both in terms of American culture as well as broader thought.  Although I am eagerly awaiting the Masonic studies that purportedly were supposed to be coming out for some time.  Joe Swick had one partially written although he reportedly dropped it once Nick Literski&#039;s (sp? yeah - too lazy to look it up.  Sorry Nick.) was doing his.  I think that will be a very necessary first step.

But eventually someone has to draw things together.  (For instance I&#039;ll lay good odds that by looking primarily from a Masonic POV Nick will inadvertently distort BY&#039;s thought much like similar studies on Joseph and the broad area of hermeticism has done)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>But since Young himself was largely unaware of the categories of elite European religious thought, such training strikes me as not being the sine qua non of the matter.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;d strongly disagree.  I also don&#8217;t think one need only be aware of the categories of &#8220;elite European thought.&#8221;  I&#8217;m not saying look for theological influences on Brigham (which frankly isn&#8217;t ultimately that interesting).  Rather one should seek understanding in many areas.  One interesting area that I think has been touched on at times is Liberation Theology.  (Hardly an elite European category)  But I think having some idea of Christology and so forth would be tremendously helpful.</p>
<p>Likewise I think philosophical grounding &#8211; especially in such things as pragmatism and idealism &#8211; is very necessary if one wants to understand what Brigham was grasping at.</p>
<blockquote><p><i>The problem is that most treatments have been fragmentary, focusing on one allegedly shocking area of divergence from the contemporary Mormon majority at a time as if different aspects of Young’s thought existed in airtight containers. We need integrative work that puts all of the pieces together and shows how it all fits, as well as how it drives the man’s pragmatic decisions.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, and these fragmentary studies are also often misleading precisely because they lack that more holistic grounding.  Both in terms of American culture as well as broader thought.  Although I am eagerly awaiting the Masonic studies that purportedly were supposed to be coming out for some time.  Joe Swick had one partially written although he reportedly dropped it once Nick Literski&#8217;s (sp? yeah &#8211; too lazy to look it up.  Sorry Nick.) was doing his.  I think that will be a very necessary first step.</p>
<p>But eventually someone has to draw things together.  (For instance I&#8217;ll lay good odds that by looking primarily from a Masonic POV Nick will inadvertently distort BY&#8217;s thought much like similar studies on Joseph and the broad area of hermeticism has done)</p>
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		<title>By: pedro</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/#comment-104699</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pedro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4254#comment-104699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brigham Young = one of my heroes.

Theologically, Ill take BY over Robert Millet anyday of the week.

...no disrespect to Robert Millet, who I&#039;m sure is a fine man and Latter-Day Saint.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brigham Young = one of my heroes.</p>
<p>Theologically, Ill take BY over Robert Millet anyday of the week.</p>
<p>&#8230;no disrespect to Robert Millet, who I&#8217;m sure is a fine man and Latter-Day Saint.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/#comment-104697</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4254#comment-104697</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, JNS.  I assume that Orton and Slaughter wrote the chapters together.  Is that correct?  (Or did Orton handle narrative while Slaughter handled the visuals?)

On a side note, I would have preferred seeing a hardcover version.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, JNS.  I assume that Orton and Slaughter wrote the chapters together.  Is that correct?  (Or did Orton handle narrative while Slaughter handled the visuals?)</p>
<p>On a side note, I would have preferred seeing a hardcover version.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/#comment-104695</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4254#comment-104695</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gerald, thanks for your comments.  I think your dissatisfaction with how people perceive Brigham Young is quite parallel to mine.  A thematic treatment might work -- but only if careful attention is paid to showing how the various themes interact.

On the Moses/Joshua thing, I think the Moses analogy is used because of the Exodus and purification in the wilderness aspect, rather than the lawgiver component.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerald, thanks for your comments.  I think your dissatisfaction with how people perceive Brigham Young is quite parallel to mine.  A thematic treatment might work &#8212; but only if careful attention is paid to showing how the various themes interact.</p>
<p>On the Moses/Joshua thing, I think the Moses analogy is used because of the Exodus and purification in the wilderness aspect, rather than the lawgiver component.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald Smith</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/#comment-104693</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerald Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4254#comment-104693</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think it is too difficult to marginalize Brigham Young.  Given that the focus of his 30+ years leading the Church are, by many people, boiled down to polygamy, MMM, and Adam-God, it does become very easy to make a 2 dimensional caricature of him.
What I&#039;d like to see, and not having read this book yet I&#039;m not sure if it succeeds in this, is a book that does discuss these three, but only as a part of the larger context of his life.  His roles as apostle, prophet, leader, governor, carpenter, parent, husband, etc., are often forgotten or ignored.  His thousands of sermons, which did not speak on Adam-God or polygamy, seem to be ignored by Saint and Gentile, alike.
While I see the weakness of breaking a book up into themes to discuss on the man, I don&#039;t see any easier way of encapsulating all of the various roles and ideas from this one man.  Had they written chronologically, would the history and thoughts of the man been more easily displayed? Or would it have made him 2 dimensional, as have all the other history books I&#039;ve read on him have done.

BTW, while the world calls him the &quot;American Moses&quot;, I&#039;d note that is technically incorrect.  Moses never entered the promised land, but only prepared the people for it and gave the people the laws of God.  In this sense, Brigham would have been the &quot;American Joshua&quot;, and Joseph Smith would be the American Moses.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it is too difficult to marginalize Brigham Young.  Given that the focus of his 30+ years leading the Church are, by many people, boiled down to polygamy, MMM, and Adam-God, it does become very easy to make a 2 dimensional caricature of him.<br />
What I&#8217;d like to see, and not having read this book yet I&#8217;m not sure if it succeeds in this, is a book that does discuss these three, but only as a part of the larger context of his life.  His roles as apostle, prophet, leader, governor, carpenter, parent, husband, etc., are often forgotten or ignored.  His thousands of sermons, which did not speak on Adam-God or polygamy, seem to be ignored by Saint and Gentile, alike.<br />
While I see the weakness of breaking a book up into themes to discuss on the man, I don&#8217;t see any easier way of encapsulating all of the various roles and ideas from this one man.  Had they written chronologically, would the history and thoughts of the man been more easily displayed? Or would it have made him 2 dimensional, as have all the other history books I&#8217;ve read on him have done.</p>
<p>BTW, while the world calls him the &#8220;American Moses&#8221;, I&#8217;d note that is technically incorrect.  Moses never entered the promised land, but only prepared the people for it and gave the people the laws of God.  In this sense, Brigham would have been the &#8220;American Joshua&#8221;, and Joseph Smith would be the American Moses.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/#comment-104691</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4254#comment-104691</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Justin, yes.  A section in the center of the volume collects several good images of Brigham Young and his family; other images are scattered throughout the book.  The scattered images are generally interesting although occasionally of unclear relevance, as with the photograph of a collection of Native Americans in front of the ZCMI building on page 89.

The book also has other non-narrative segments, such as a chapter that lists world leaders and other random facts from the period of Young&#039;s life, as well as a collection of &quot;Fun Facts&quot; consisting basically of paragraph-length decontextualized humorous stories about Young.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin, yes.  A section in the center of the volume collects several good images of Brigham Young and his family; other images are scattered throughout the book.  The scattered images are generally interesting although occasionally of unclear relevance, as with the photograph of a collection of Native Americans in front of the ZCMI building on page 89.</p>
<p>The book also has other non-narrative segments, such as a chapter that lists world leaders and other random facts from the period of Young&#8217;s life, as well as a collection of &#8220;Fun Facts&#8221; consisting basically of paragraph-length decontextualized humorous stories about Young.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/10/21/how-not-to-understand-brigham-young/#comment-104689</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:47:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4254#comment-104689</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is there visual content in the book (photos, daguerreotypes, paintings, etc.)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there visual content in the book (photos, daguerreotypes, paintings, etc.)?</p>
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