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	<title>Comments on: Move slowly on the tricky stuff</title>
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		<title>By: Rick Grunder</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/22/move-slowly-on-the-tricky-stuff/#comment-86689</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick Grunder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:32:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4471#comment-86689</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Although, Sam (#17), I think we must both agree that at some point, wherever that may be, one would be over-reaching to redeem some elements in a claimed revelatory text, simply by excusing them as language familiar to the translator.  As an extreme example, if one found the entire Book of Omni, word for word, in an undisputed 1812 imprint, then that would be unredeemable as mere language usage, surely.  So somewhere between that extreme, and a mere &quot;came to pass,&quot; each of us must draw our line.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although, Sam (#17), I think we must both agree that at some point, wherever that may be, one would be over-reaching to redeem some elements in a claimed revelatory text, simply by excusing them as language familiar to the translator.  As an extreme example, if one found the entire Book of Omni, word for word, in an undisputed 1812 imprint, then that would be unredeemable as mere language usage, surely.  So somewhere between that extreme, and a mere &#8220;came to pass,&#8221; each of us must draw our line.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/22/move-slowly-on-the-tricky-stuff/#comment-86688</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[smb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4471#comment-86688</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Randall, you&#039;re explaining parsimony rather than the zebra phenomenon (which is generally stated, &quot;when a medical student hears hoofbeats, he thinks zebras; when an attending hears hoofbeats, she thinks horses&quot;).  As for the Masonic question, the Nauvoo period is rather different from the pre-Nauvoo era, when parsimony would support typical Protestant culture rather than Masonry as antecedent for Smith&#039;s utterances.  And the devil&#039;s in the details; I may post part of my section on Nauvoo Masonry at some point.

Rick: I agree, these are fascinating to chase down and may even provide fossil evidence of stages in American English (I have a vague sense in your reference to Skouzen that you see these as evidence of modern origins for BoM; while I&#039;m sympathetic to those who believe either ancient or modern origins, it&#039;s worth remembering that these linguistic artifacts only date the creation of the English text (which is know from other sources), rather than characterize the nature of the creation (was it Smithian translation, or was it primary authorship?)).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randall, you&#8217;re explaining parsimony rather than the zebra phenomenon (which is generally stated, &#8220;when a medical student hears hoofbeats, he thinks zebras; when an attending hears hoofbeats, she thinks horses&#8221;).  As for the Masonic question, the Nauvoo period is rather different from the pre-Nauvoo era, when parsimony would support typical Protestant culture rather than Masonry as antecedent for Smith&#8217;s utterances.  And the devil&#8217;s in the details; I may post part of my section on Nauvoo Masonry at some point.</p>
<p>Rick: I agree, these are fascinating to chase down and may even provide fossil evidence of stages in American English (I have a vague sense in your reference to Skouzen that you see these as evidence of modern origins for BoM; while I&#8217;m sympathetic to those who believe either ancient or modern origins, it&#8217;s worth remembering that these linguistic artifacts only date the creation of the English text (which is know from other sources), rather than characterize the nature of the creation (was it Smithian translation, or was it primary authorship?)).</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Grunder</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/22/move-slowly-on-the-tricky-stuff/#comment-86687</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick Grunder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 06:53:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4471#comment-86687</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This useful Google approach indeed displays an interesting rhetorical mixture of two unrelated scriptures into one oft-repeated expression.  As the suggested search results show clearly, this particular combined device (fastening &quot;him&quot; as a nail in a sure place + nails fastened by the masters of assemblies;  Isaiah 22:23 + Ecclesiastes 12:11) was in wide use by a variety of denominations by the time Joseph Smith employed it.

I have found the same phenomenon in the Book of Mormon.  Consider, for example, confusing the fiery serpents which bit the children of Israel (Numbers 21:6-9; Deuteronomy 8:15) with the unrelated fiery &lt;em&gt;flying&lt;/em&gt; serpents of Isaiah 14:29 and 30:6.  This error was common enough in the early nineteenth century, and it crept into the Book of Mormon&#039;s 1 Nephi 17:41 (discussed in my &lt;em&gt;Mormon List Twenty-Two&lt;/em&gt; [Ithaca, New York: Rick Grunder – Books, January 1987], entry 63, now developed into my &lt;em&gt;Mormon Parallels&lt;/em&gt; entry 145.  See Royal Skousen&#039;s hopeful explanation in &lt;em&gt;Analysis of Textual Variants of the Book of Mormon&lt;/em&gt; . . . I:369).

Another example is the expression in Ether 4:15, &quot;hardness of heart and blindness of mind,&quot; a Protestant expression I have found in two texts (1818 and 1832), but not in the Bible (for hardness of heart alone, see Mark 16:14 or Matthew 19:8; Mark 3:5, 10:5).  Even further removed from ancient text, yet frequently encountered in religious rhetoric of Joseph Smith&#039;s world was the non-biblical expression of singing redeeming love, or singing the song of redeeming love (Alma 5:9;  see also v. 26 and 26:13).  Or the Protestant expression &quot;Blessed Jesus&quot; so common in Joseph&#039;s time:  not in the Bible, but vivid in Alma 19:29.

Having fun with words is indeed treacherous as Sam points out, and we must proceed methodically.  But the quest can certainly be exhilarating.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This useful Google approach indeed displays an interesting rhetorical mixture of two unrelated scriptures into one oft-repeated expression.  As the suggested search results show clearly, this particular combined device (fastening &#8220;him&#8221; as a nail in a sure place + nails fastened by the masters of assemblies;  Isaiah 22:23 + Ecclesiastes 12:11) was in wide use by a variety of denominations by the time Joseph Smith employed it.</p>
<p>I have found the same phenomenon in the Book of Mormon.  Consider, for example, confusing the fiery serpents which bit the children of Israel (Numbers 21:6-9; Deuteronomy 8:15) with the unrelated fiery <em>flying</em> serpents of Isaiah 14:29 and 30:6.  This error was common enough in the early nineteenth century, and it crept into the Book of Mormon&#8217;s 1 Nephi 17:41 (discussed in my <em>Mormon List Twenty-Two</em> [Ithaca, New York: Rick Grunder – Books, January 1987], entry 63, now developed into my <em>Mormon Parallels</em> entry 145.  See Royal Skousen&#8217;s hopeful explanation in <em>Analysis of Textual Variants of the Book of Mormon</em> . . . I:369).</p>
<p>Another example is the expression in Ether 4:15, &#8220;hardness of heart and blindness of mind,&#8221; a Protestant expression I have found in two texts (1818 and 1832), but not in the Bible (for hardness of heart alone, see Mark 16:14 or Matthew 19:8; Mark 3:5, 10:5).  Even further removed from ancient text, yet frequently encountered in religious rhetoric of Joseph Smith&#8217;s world was the non-biblical expression of singing redeeming love, or singing the song of redeeming love (Alma 5:9;  see also v. 26 and 26:13).  Or the Protestant expression &#8220;Blessed Jesus&#8221; so common in Joseph&#8217;s time:  not in the Bible, but vivid in Alma 19:29.</p>
<p>Having fun with words is indeed treacherous as Sam points out, and we must proceed methodically.  But the quest can certainly be exhilarating.</p>
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		<title>By: Nitsav</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/22/move-slowly-on-the-tricky-stuff/#comment-86686</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nitsav]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 05:50:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4471#comment-86686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Bible is the &quot;more exotic, rare, and expensive diagnosis&quot; ?

Eye of the beholder, Randall.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Bible is the &#8220;more exotic, rare, and expensive diagnosis&#8221; ?</p>
<p>Eye of the beholder, Randall.</p>
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		<title>By: Randall</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/22/move-slowly-on-the-tricky-stuff/#comment-86685</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Randall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 05:19:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4471#comment-86685</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In medical education, we have a saying: &quot;When you hear galloping in the U.S., think horses not zebras&quot;.  This axiom guides physicians to first pursue the obvious and statistically probable explanation rather than perseverating on more exotic, rare, and expensive diagnoses.

The same is true with Mormon history.  If Joseph Smith was a Mason who participated in Masonic temple practice before introducing his own ceremonies, the overlap between the rites is most easily explained by Joseph Smith co-opting and improving upon the Masonic practices.  Fertile ground beautified through inspiration.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In medical education, we have a saying: &#8220;When you hear galloping in the U.S., think horses not zebras&#8221;.  This axiom guides physicians to first pursue the obvious and statistically probable explanation rather than perseverating on more exotic, rare, and expensive diagnoses.</p>
<p>The same is true with Mormon history.  If Joseph Smith was a Mason who participated in Masonic temple practice before introducing his own ceremonies, the overlap between the rites is most easily explained by Joseph Smith co-opting and improving upon the Masonic practices.  Fertile ground beautified through inspiration.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Donaldson</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/22/move-slowly-on-the-tricky-stuff/#comment-86684</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Donaldson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 04:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4471#comment-86684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Puritan, evangelical, and Victorian preachers frequently quote the Bible without explicitly referencing the passage, because they assumed their audiences would understand the context. More, they often borrow phrases which are laden with Biblical association and imagery that today’s reader may just not catch...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

More than Puritan, evangelical, and Victorian preachers—certainly Joseph Smith did, to an amazing degree. A few years ago Deseret Book published a volume called &lt;em&gt;Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith&lt;/em&gt;, which took the familiar editing of JFS and added footnotes (by Richard C. Galbraith) for all the scriptural quotations and allusions in JS&#039;s speaking and writing. A very interesting and valuable volume that, like all interesting Deseret Book products, was in print for about 20 minutes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Puritan, evangelical, and Victorian preachers frequently quote the Bible without explicitly referencing the passage, because they assumed their audiences would understand the context. More, they often borrow phrases which are laden with Biblical association and imagery that today’s reader may just not catch&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>More than Puritan, evangelical, and Victorian preachers—certainly Joseph Smith did, to an amazing degree. A few years ago Deseret Book published a volume called <em>Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith</em>, which took the familiar editing of JFS and added footnotes (by Richard C. Galbraith) for all the scriptural quotations and allusions in JS&#8217;s speaking and writing. A very interesting and valuable volume that, like all interesting Deseret Book products, was in print for about 20 minutes.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/22/move-slowly-on-the-tricky-stuff/#comment-86683</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Green]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4471#comment-86683</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For answering questions like, &quot;What did Americans think or know about a particular topic in 1850, and how did they talk about it?&quot; Google Books can give you in 10 minutes what instead might take an afternoon in a very well stocked university library. For the 99% of us without easy access to a large university library or a free afternoon, it&#039;s a great way to take the first step in a research project that otherwise wouldn&#039;t get done. Steps #2-99 still require a lot of footwork, but Google Books is a huge help for step #1. For places outside the U.S. or for any century except the 19th, coverage is probably still too spotty to get quite as much mileage out of it, but for Mormon history questions, Google Books seems like a perfect match.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For answering questions like, &#8220;What did Americans think or know about a particular topic in 1850, and how did they talk about it?&#8221; Google Books can give you in 10 minutes what instead might take an afternoon in a very well stocked university library. For the 99% of us without easy access to a large university library or a free afternoon, it&#8217;s a great way to take the first step in a research project that otherwise wouldn&#8217;t get done. Steps #2-99 still require a lot of footwork, but Google Books is a huge help for step #1. For places outside the U.S. or for any century except the 19th, coverage is probably still too spotty to get quite as much mileage out of it, but for Mormon history questions, Google Books seems like a perfect match.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/22/move-slowly-on-the-tricky-stuff/#comment-86682</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 02:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4471#comment-86682</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah.  If I read only the Bible instead of splitting my time among the other volumes in our cannon, I would be assuredly more fluent.

But take, for example, the items in Sam&#039;s post.  From the NIV, we have:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

and

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat of honour for the house of his father. All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars. &#039;In that day,&#039; declares the LORD Almighty, &#039;the peg driven into the firm place will give way; it will be sheared off and will fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut down.&#039; The LORD has spoken.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now, sure enough, I imagine that many Latter-day Saints probably would not be aware of the KJV versions of these verses.  But being aware of the verses in another translation doesn&#039;t necessarily mean awareness of the biblical allusion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah.  If I read only the Bible instead of splitting my time among the other volumes in our cannon, I would be assuredly more fluent.</p>
<p>But take, for example, the items in Sam&#8217;s post.  From the NIV, we have:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>and</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat of honour for the house of his father. All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars. &#8216;In that day,&#8217; declares the LORD Almighty, &#8216;the peg driven into the firm place will give way; it will be sheared off and will fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut down.&#8217; The LORD has spoken.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Now, sure enough, I imagine that many Latter-day Saints probably would not be aware of the KJV versions of these verses.  But being aware of the verses in another translation doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean awareness of the biblical allusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/22/move-slowly-on-the-tricky-stuff/#comment-86681</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 01:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4471#comment-86681</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, Ardis, there is that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, Ardis, there is that.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/22/move-slowly-on-the-tricky-stuff/#comment-86674</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ardis Parshall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 00:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=4471#comment-86674</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[J., we may have an edge in the sense that we&#039;re familiar with the KJV language, but how familiar are most of us with the &lt;em&gt;content&lt;/em&gt; of the Old Testament beyond the major stories of Genesis and Exodus, and the odd verses from here and there that we use for proof texts?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J., we may have an edge in the sense that we&#8217;re familiar with the KJV language, but how familiar are most of us with the <em>content</em> of the Old Testament beyond the major stories of Genesis and Exodus, and the odd verses from here and there that we use for proof texts?</p>
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