Comments on: Are conversations about feminism and heterosexual marriage now harder to have?

By: ptcndjerk makes a quick post and then skitters away

ptcndjerk makes a quick post and then skitters away — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:31:50 +0000

Oh, and when I was living blocks from East High in Salt Lake, a friend attended an assembly where the question was asked “how many of your mothers work?” Somewhat over 50 % of hands went up, prob. closer to 80%; next question, do you plan to work; something like 20% of hands went up. Take such comments as you will.

By: cndjerk makes a quick post and then skitters away

cndjerk makes a quick post and then skitters away — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:27:48 +0000

I heard a couple days ago that, astonishingly, 85% of the jobs lost in the last year were lost by men. Such a statistic may make this entire discussion somewhat superfluous.

I have worked most of my life. One reason is that I absolutely do not come from money; my ancestresses have been pretty much required to work for at least a portion of their lives or face penury. (Shout-out to bbell here.) Hence, my working history, not that it will guarantee a job in these difficult times.

By: StillConfused

StillConfused — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:20:03 +0000

I never really viewed religion as a mandate. I think of it all as a choice. Even within specific sects, there are a myriad of choices. I don’t really care so much where a person is on the spectrum, as long as they are true to that choice. If you want to be an ultra-orthodox Mormon, great, but accept that that is your decision only. Others may not feel the same way. If you think a woman working outside the home is bad, then your family should live accordingly. But others don’t share that viewpoint and live fulfilling lives.

By: nasamomdele

nasamomdele — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 20:44:22 +0000

#51,

It’s not as simple as “passing judgment”, which is a widespread phenomenon, and found in the feminist camp as much as it is found in the SSM or preserve marriage camp.

If religion were a choice like you describe adoption of gender roles or structuring the family to be a choice, you might have a point. And I think there are a lot of people that think that way.

But there are many people that view religion as not a choice, but a sort of mandate. A mandate for certain behavior and a mandate against certain behaviors. Of course, people insert their judgment into the mix and many times confuse the doctrine with ideals of righteousness, rights, or emotions. But certain aspects of certain religions are immutable.

So it is more than judgment for many people. It is, to use the phrase, “standing as a witness”. Surely that deserves some respect, even if you disagree.

By: StillConfused

StillConfused — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 17:30:27 +0000

Another factor to my unique situation may have been that I really don’t care whether a woman works or not… as long as she is happy and does the best that she can with her choices. There were women in my ward on both sides of the camp that sought to impose their personal decisions on others and that is where the tension seemed to be. If someone said to me that they were a stay at home mom, my response was “great”; if someone said to me that they were a CEO of a company, my response was likewise “great”. I never viewed it my place to pass judgment on another person’s choices. Perhaps that is the problem that we are having both with gender roles and with SSM, people are passing judgment on the choices of others. That really isn’t necessary. Once person’s choice of how to structure their family needn’t take away from your choice.

By: Natalie

Natalie — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 12:49:53 +0000

48, 49- I agree, that’s really interesting. To expand upon that, it does seem that when we talk about women working to be fulfilled, then we almost always assume they have a professional job. Honestly, I wouldn’t find it fulfilling to work in some jobs, but I suspect it is often the mothers in lower-end jobs that don’t actually have much choice about working.

I think we see church culture celebrating certain kinds of men’s work more than others, too: MBA’s, lawyers, doctors, etc. I guess this makes some sense, since if you want the stay at home mother “ideal,” then the husband pretty much needs a professional job.

By: queuno

queuno — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 03:37:35 +0000

Iwas a professional — air traffic control and then attorney — and for some reason that seemed to make a difference. Women who worked in entry level jobs seemed to catch more crap about working outside the home.

This is one of more fascinating observations I’ve read on this topic.

Perhaps the “church” (lower-case, meaning the culture) celebrates only certain types of work outside the home?

By: StillConfused

StillConfused — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 01:08:56 +0000

It wasn’t until I moved to Utah that I was exposed to stay at home moms. Even in my family of 12 kids, my mother worked. I have nearly always worked even when I had kids at home. I personally didn’t catch much flack for it — mainly because I think the other women were intimidated by me — but I know that other women in the ward felt the pressure. I was a professional — air traffic control and then attorney — and for some reason that seemed to make a difference. Women who worked in entry level jobs seemed to catch more crap about working outside the home.

By: z

Sat, 07 Feb 2009 00:39:23 +0000

I think this is a very insightful post. One of the interesting things about the gay marriage debate is that it has exposed the double standard opponents of gay marriage apply. They use lack of proper gender roles to argue against gay marriage, but heterosexuals may act out any gender roles they please, to the fullest extent possible, without their marriages losing legal effect.

By: Starfoxy

Starfoxy — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 00:23:49 +0000

I did go through Young Women’s, but I have good reason to believe that the ward I grew up in was full of FLDS people who just hadn’t made the transition yet. Which means that I got an earful every Sunday about getting married and makin’ babies.

I’ve gotten out of the habit of assuming that what my childhood ward was like is what the church is like. However you do bring up an interesting idea, that perhaps it wasn’t so much the ward, but rather the programs I was in while I was in that ward.

Now that I think about it, the wards that I include when I try to think about what church is like are wards where I’ve been tucked away in the Nursery or the Primary. These days what I hear at church is what is said in Sacrament meeting. Gender wasn’t a topic for sacrament meeting talks, until prop 8.