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	<title>Comments on: Why do people leave the church?</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/15/why-do-people-leave-the-church/</link>
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		<title>By: Nathan Richardson</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/15/why-do-people-leave-the-church/#comment-136648</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan Richardson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 21:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=6376#comment-136648</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I guess my point is, I can see why we tend to default to with-kids activities.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess my point is, I can see why we tend to default to with-kids activities.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Richardson</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/15/why-do-people-leave-the-church/#comment-136647</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan Richardson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 21:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=6376#comment-136647</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Natalie B.: &quot;Have more adult-only activities for ward members. ... I know adult-only activities are hard on people with kids, but only doing activities that include kids excludes those without them just as much.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I agree that adult-only activities are probably a welcome change of pace for most people, and of course the reason it doesn&#039;t happen as often is babysitting logistics. But I don&#039;t see how with-kids activities excludes people without children to the same degree that no-kids activities would exclude people with children. If someone decides not to go to a with-kids activity, it might be for reasons of discomfort or disinterest, which can hopefully be ameliorated by support and a positive attitude. But if someone decides not to go to a no-kids activity, it seems most likely that it&#039;s because they can&#039;t---they don&#039;t have the money or means of leaving their kids for an evening.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Natalie B.: &#8220;Have more adult-only activities for ward members. &#8230; I know adult-only activities are hard on people with kids, but only doing activities that include kids excludes those without them just as much.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I agree that adult-only activities are probably a welcome change of pace for most people, and of course the reason it doesn&#8217;t happen as often is babysitting logistics. But I don&#8217;t see how with-kids activities excludes people without children to the same degree that no-kids activities would exclude people with children. If someone decides not to go to a with-kids activity, it might be for reasons of discomfort or disinterest, which can hopefully be ameliorated by support and a positive attitude. But if someone decides not to go to a no-kids activity, it seems most likely that it&#8217;s because they can&#8217;t&#8212;they don&#8217;t have the money or means of leaving their kids for an evening.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Parkin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/15/why-do-people-leave-the-church/#comment-125198</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas Parkin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 03:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=6376#comment-125198</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I strongly agree that there isn&#039;t enough emphasis on Christ, or His gospel, in the week to week conversation of the church, there is a lot more to understanding Christ than in saying &quot;Jesus&quot; a lot. When we are talking about His doctrine, and especially faith, repentance, etc. we ARE talking about Him. 

I attended a block this last week in which Jesus&#039; name wasn&#039;t mentioned more than handful of times, if that. But the conversation in all three meetings was marked by teaching principles that are in Christ, and were accompanied by the Holy Spirit and the eye and heart opening and edification that implies, and so to my mind we were conversing about Christ even if that wasn&#039;t constantly made explicit. 

The problem is in keeping the center at the center. All the speculating, grousing, wondering, hurting, entertaining, all of it that goes on in the bloggernacle, is beneficial, and wonderful, if we understand and are living the gospel and keeping that central. If the kind of things that the bloggernacle does becomes central, then the battle is already lost. ~]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I strongly agree that there isn&#8217;t enough emphasis on Christ, or His gospel, in the week to week conversation of the church, there is a lot more to understanding Christ than in saying &#8220;Jesus&#8221; a lot. When we are talking about His doctrine, and especially faith, repentance, etc. we ARE talking about Him. </p>
<p>I attended a block this last week in which Jesus&#8217; name wasn&#8217;t mentioned more than handful of times, if that. But the conversation in all three meetings was marked by teaching principles that are in Christ, and were accompanied by the Holy Spirit and the eye and heart opening and edification that implies, and so to my mind we were conversing about Christ even if that wasn&#8217;t constantly made explicit. </p>
<p>The problem is in keeping the center at the center. All the speculating, grousing, wondering, hurting, entertaining, all of it that goes on in the bloggernacle, is beneficial, and wonderful, if we understand and are living the gospel and keeping that central. If the kind of things that the bloggernacle does becomes central, then the battle is already lost. ~</p>
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		<title>By: Natalie</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/15/why-do-people-leave-the-church/#comment-125182</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Natalie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 01:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=6376#comment-125182</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Many other denominations have no such expectations of membership. People come, and go, and find someplace they like to worship. When that place changes, the move on to some other place. The common Mormon attitude is that &quot;the church equals our church.&quot; Other denominations have an attitude closer to &quot;the church equals all the believes in Christ.&quot; We mormons tend to be so hung up on the exactness, that we don&#039;t see how someone could be only focusing on the core of the gospel (i.e. Christ&#039;s atonement). In fact, we often find it odd when an entire meeting would focus on Jesus Christ, instead of some other gospel principle or church behavior.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many other denominations have no such expectations of membership. People come, and go, and find someplace they like to worship. When that place changes, the move on to some other place. The common Mormon attitude is that &#8220;the church equals our church.&#8221; Other denominations have an attitude closer to &#8220;the church equals all the believes in Christ.&#8221; We mormons tend to be so hung up on the exactness, that we don&#8217;t see how someone could be only focusing on the core of the gospel (i.e. Christ&#8217;s atonement). In fact, we often find it odd when an entire meeting would focus on Jesus Christ, instead of some other gospel principle or church behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam B.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/15/why-do-people-leave-the-church/#comment-125090</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=6376#comment-125090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Natalie B.,
While  I get what you&#039;re saying, why does it have to be an either-or choice?  We recently had a very successful ward activity--a dance for adults with babysitting provided in the nursery.  By 9:00 pm, most of the kids had migrated into the dance.  Nobody seemed to mind, and it gave me some time with my kids (in the nursery room), some time with my wife and other adults (in the dance) and some time with all of the above.

Frankly, we don&#039;t have a lot of low-price options around here for babysitting.  Frankly, I&#039;m not going to waste my limited babysitting money/karma on a ward activity--if I have a babysitter, we&#039;re going to a nice restaurant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Natalie B.,<br />
While  I get what you&#8217;re saying, why does it have to be an either-or choice?  We recently had a very successful ward activity&#8211;a dance for adults with babysitting provided in the nursery.  By 9:00 pm, most of the kids had migrated into the dance.  Nobody seemed to mind, and it gave me some time with my kids (in the nursery room), some time with my wife and other adults (in the dance) and some time with all of the above.</p>
<p>Frankly, we don&#8217;t have a lot of low-price options around here for babysitting.  Frankly, I&#8217;m not going to waste my limited babysitting money/karma on a ward activity&#8211;if I have a babysitter, we&#8217;re going to a nice restaurant.</p>
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		<title>By: Natalie B.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/15/why-do-people-leave-the-church/#comment-125089</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Natalie B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=6376#comment-125089</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#16 - Right.  One of my initial questions about the survey is what kind of overlap there is between people who leave for doctrinal reasons and people who leave because they don&#039;t feel they &quot;fit.&quot;  I suspect that these issues often go together, but I wonder if people are more comfortable articulating one than the other.

I would echo the remarks others are making about the need to integrate people into each ward.  My periods of strongest engagement have definitely been a consequence of feeling appreciated in the ward I attended.  When I feel unwanted, I stop trying to contribute.  I guess the message is to move to wards where the people are like you!

One concrete suggestion that I head expressed yesterday was to have more adult-only activities for ward members.  Adults often have very few built-in opportunities to socialize as a group without the presence of children outside of RS activities (which only covers the women!).  But, I think adults are in need of friendship, too.  I know adult-only activities are hard on people with kids, but only doing activities that include kids excludes those without them just as much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#16 &#8211; Right.  One of my initial questions about the survey is what kind of overlap there is between people who leave for doctrinal reasons and people who leave because they don&#8217;t feel they &#8220;fit.&#8221;  I suspect that these issues often go together, but I wonder if people are more comfortable articulating one than the other.</p>
<p>I would echo the remarks others are making about the need to integrate people into each ward.  My periods of strongest engagement have definitely been a consequence of feeling appreciated in the ward I attended.  When I feel unwanted, I stop trying to contribute.  I guess the message is to move to wards where the people are like you!</p>
<p>One concrete suggestion that I head expressed yesterday was to have more adult-only activities for ward members.  Adults often have very few built-in opportunities to socialize as a group without the presence of children outside of RS activities (which only covers the women!).  But, I think adults are in need of friendship, too.  I know adult-only activities are hard on people with kids, but only doing activities that include kids excludes those without them just as much.</p>
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		<title>By: RE</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/15/why-do-people-leave-the-church/#comment-125088</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RE]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=6376#comment-125088</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m with J #18, I believe the Internet is likely to have changed a lot of things in the decades since 1988.  I think this study is more than long in the tooth, I think it&#039;s so out of date as to be mostly no longer useful.  It would be really interesting to replicate it now and see how things have changed.  I wonder if this study could still be published today, by BYU professors anyhow?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with J #18, I believe the Internet is likely to have changed a lot of things in the decades since 1988.  I think this study is more than long in the tooth, I think it&#8217;s so out of date as to be mostly no longer useful.  It would be really interesting to replicate it now and see how things have changed.  I wonder if this study could still be published today, by BYU professors anyhow?</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/15/why-do-people-leave-the-church/#comment-125076</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=6376#comment-125076</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Red Emma, so true!  It&#039;s also, of course, a function of your family&#039;s own demographics.  The farther you are from the &quot;median Mormon,&quot; the more likely the experience you describe, I think.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Red Emma, so true!  It&#8217;s also, of course, a function of your family&#8217;s own demographics.  The farther you are from the &#8220;median Mormon,&#8221; the more likely the experience you describe, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Emma</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/15/why-do-people-leave-the-church/#comment-125073</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Red Emma]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=6376#comment-125073</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If the unit is small enough, and if you move in from far away, it&#039;s always possible that you/your family will be in a demographic dead zone--that there really will be no one like you/your family.  It may not be possible to truly integrate into the branch/ward, and you need to find other reasons to go. It&#039;s nice when people are nice to you--don&#039;t get me wrong--but there is no substitute for those who are in the same lifespace and share your tastes and politics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the unit is small enough, and if you move in from far away, it&#8217;s always possible that you/your family will be in a demographic dead zone&#8211;that there really will be no one like you/your family.  It may not be possible to truly integrate into the branch/ward, and you need to find other reasons to go. It&#8217;s nice when people are nice to you&#8211;don&#8217;t get me wrong&#8211;but there is no substitute for those who are in the same lifespace and share your tastes and politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/15/why-do-people-leave-the-church/#comment-125063</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 17:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=6376#comment-125063</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt, I think one take-away point is the need for social integration, whether of new converts or new move-ins.  We don&#039;t pay nearly as much attention to this as we should.

When I moved into the area where I currently lived (a long time ago), the ward had a thing called &quot;dinner groups,&quot; where every other month we would get together with maybe a half-dozen other couples for dinner in someone&#039;s home.  There were always two groups, which rotated, so you had a base of people you got to know really well and over time you got to meet everyone in a social situation outside of church.  That really greased the skids for our integration into the ward.  I think that sort of thing is much more important than flogging people to do their hometeaching of hard core inactives, which is a misplaced allocation of scarce resources in my view.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, I think one take-away point is the need for social integration, whether of new converts or new move-ins.  We don&#8217;t pay nearly as much attention to this as we should.</p>
<p>When I moved into the area where I currently lived (a long time ago), the ward had a thing called &#8220;dinner groups,&#8221; where every other month we would get together with maybe a half-dozen other couples for dinner in someone&#8217;s home.  There were always two groups, which rotated, so you had a base of people you got to know really well and over time you got to meet everyone in a social situation outside of church.  That really greased the skids for our integration into the ward.  I think that sort of thing is much more important than flogging people to do their hometeaching of hard core inactives, which is a misplaced allocation of scarce resources in my view.</p>
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