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	<title>Comments on: Revising the Joseph Smith manual</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/14/revising-the-joseph-smith-manual/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Steve L</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/14/revising-the-joseph-smith-manual/#comment-131768</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7283#comment-131768</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amen Ardis on #26]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen Ardis on #26</p>
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		<title>By: Steve L</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/14/revising-the-joseph-smith-manual/#comment-131767</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7283#comment-131767</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What struck me about the difference between the versions was that the manual removed any trace of emotion.  The tender and fine things he says are what one would expect a husband who&#039;s away to write to his wife, but the things he writes about the city demonstrate an uncommon intensity to this man and certainly changes the meaning of &quot;after beholding all that I had any desire to behold I returned to my room to meditate and calm my mind&quot; as given in the manual.  Sweet sentiments written to his wife are fine and good, but don&#039;t even touch the depths.  The manual is surely sanitized and not for the better I would say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What struck me about the difference between the versions was that the manual removed any trace of emotion.  The tender and fine things he says are what one would expect a husband who&#8217;s away to write to his wife, but the things he writes about the city demonstrate an uncommon intensity to this man and certainly changes the meaning of &#8220;after beholding all that I had any desire to behold I returned to my room to meditate and calm my mind&#8221; as given in the manual.  Sweet sentiments written to his wife are fine and good, but don&#8217;t even touch the depths.  The manual is surely sanitized and not for the better I would say.</p>
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		<title>By: TonyD</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/14/revising-the-joseph-smith-manual/#comment-131735</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TonyD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 02:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7283#comment-131735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think there are huge costs to the oversimplification.

Sadly, I often dread spending time with many LDS members. Every serious theological issue seems to be answered by a platitude. Most feel they understand evil, good, God, etc. -- and they have some simple quote to prove it.  Typically, a quote we&#039;ve all heard a hundred times. 

That is OK for children. But that is not OK for someone who has been a member for 20 years, and has been led to believe that they are following in the footsteps of a real prophet.

Is this intellectualism? Or is it preparation for something very serious? Personally, I can say that I wasn&#039;t prepared for my exposure to real &quot;extra-ordinary&quot; events.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are huge costs to the oversimplification.</p>
<p>Sadly, I often dread spending time with many LDS members. Every serious theological issue seems to be answered by a platitude. Most feel they understand evil, good, God, etc. &#8212; and they have some simple quote to prove it.  Typically, a quote we&#8217;ve all heard a hundred times. </p>
<p>That is OK for children. But that is not OK for someone who has been a member for 20 years, and has been led to believe that they are following in the footsteps of a real prophet.</p>
<p>Is this intellectualism? Or is it preparation for something very serious? Personally, I can say that I wasn&#8217;t prepared for my exposure to real &#8220;extra-ordinary&#8221; events.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/14/revising-the-joseph-smith-manual/#comment-131533</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Green]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7283#comment-131533</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JNS, you say you&#039;re troubled that the editors think they know how to express the ideas better than JS himself. But of course they do! They know the context of the lesson manuals, and how the manuals will be used, and who the likely readers will be. Including any passage has costs, both in terms of printing and distributing a book that will be printed in a very large number of copies, and in forcing the omission of other material. Does the inclusion of the omitted passage outweigh the cost of omitting other material?

Perhaps it does, for you and for others. But editors have to make decisions, and that is nothing new. Academic disciplines that work with older texts face the same issues all the time, and it&#039;s simply false to think that there is some perfect expression of ideal editorial principles that will solve all the problems of teaching the Canterbury Tales (or whatever) to everyone. Some editions are better than others for some purposes. Sometimes a modern translation is necessary, sometimes a normalized Middle English is preferable, sometimes it&#039;s nice to look at a diplomatic transcription of a particular manuscript, and sometimes it&#039;s necessary to consult a high-quality facsimile or the original.

But what&#039;s useful for whom? What portion of English students are prepared to benefit from a facsimile? It&#039;s the vanishingly small percentage who are  both Chaucer specialists and experienced with using manuscripts. Most doctoral-level English medievalists will never need anything beyond a normalized edition, unless they&#039;re dissertating on Chaucer. Most bachelor&#039;s students won&#039;t need anything beyond a modern translation. Requiring an &quot;Intro to Brit Lit&quot; class to look at a facsimile or Middle English edition instead of a translation would be foolish, because it would leave the students with a poorer understanding of Chaucer by presenting it in a way they aren&#039;t prepared to learn from. Sure, a teacher can and should bring in supplementary material so students have an idea about the original form of the text they&#039;re reading, and a really motivated student might seek it out on his or her own, but the primary form of pedagogy has to be in a form that most students are prepared for.

Returning to Joseph Smith, how many members of an average class are prepared to read diplomatic transcriptions of 19th-century documents? Closer to 0 than to 1, I&#039;d guess. Reading texts with non-standard punctuation and spelling is difficult, and liable to be misinterpreted as the sign of substandard intellect rather than as variation typical of the time or a lack of formal schooling. It would hinder the learning of JS&#039;s thought for most people.

For those class members who are interested in original documents, the transcription is available from the church&#039;s own website, as Natalie points out in her post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JNS, you say you&#8217;re troubled that the editors think they know how to express the ideas better than JS himself. But of course they do! They know the context of the lesson manuals, and how the manuals will be used, and who the likely readers will be. Including any passage has costs, both in terms of printing and distributing a book that will be printed in a very large number of copies, and in forcing the omission of other material. Does the inclusion of the omitted passage outweigh the cost of omitting other material?</p>
<p>Perhaps it does, for you and for others. But editors have to make decisions, and that is nothing new. Academic disciplines that work with older texts face the same issues all the time, and it&#8217;s simply false to think that there is some perfect expression of ideal editorial principles that will solve all the problems of teaching the Canterbury Tales (or whatever) to everyone. Some editions are better than others for some purposes. Sometimes a modern translation is necessary, sometimes a normalized Middle English is preferable, sometimes it&#8217;s nice to look at a diplomatic transcription of a particular manuscript, and sometimes it&#8217;s necessary to consult a high-quality facsimile or the original.</p>
<p>But what&#8217;s useful for whom? What portion of English students are prepared to benefit from a facsimile? It&#8217;s the vanishingly small percentage who are  both Chaucer specialists and experienced with using manuscripts. Most doctoral-level English medievalists will never need anything beyond a normalized edition, unless they&#8217;re dissertating on Chaucer. Most bachelor&#8217;s students won&#8217;t need anything beyond a modern translation. Requiring an &#8220;Intro to Brit Lit&#8221; class to look at a facsimile or Middle English edition instead of a translation would be foolish, because it would leave the students with a poorer understanding of Chaucer by presenting it in a way they aren&#8217;t prepared to learn from. Sure, a teacher can and should bring in supplementary material so students have an idea about the original form of the text they&#8217;re reading, and a really motivated student might seek it out on his or her own, but the primary form of pedagogy has to be in a form that most students are prepared for.</p>
<p>Returning to Joseph Smith, how many members of an average class are prepared to read diplomatic transcriptions of 19th-century documents? Closer to 0 than to 1, I&#8217;d guess. Reading texts with non-standard punctuation and spelling is difficult, and liable to be misinterpreted as the sign of substandard intellect rather than as variation typical of the time or a lack of formal schooling. It would hinder the learning of JS&#8217;s thought for most people.</p>
<p>For those class members who are interested in original documents, the transcription is available from the church&#8217;s own website, as Natalie points out in her post.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/14/revising-the-joseph-smith-manual/#comment-131501</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7283#comment-131501</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MCQ, you&#039;re being a bit too hostile here.  If you aren&#039;t even going to consider my arguments, then you&#039;re just a troll.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MCQ, you&#8217;re being a bit too hostile here.  If you aren&#8217;t even going to consider my arguments, then you&#8217;re just a troll.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: MCQ</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/14/revising-the-joseph-smith-manual/#comment-131435</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MCQ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7283#comment-131435</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;They really couldn’t have put out a Joseph Smith manual that didn’t cut out important parts of his religious thought?&quot;

They could have, if that were in any way at all the goal of the manual. 

&quot;Presenting the statement as if it were a non-millennial, emotionally even-keeled expression of familial love and duty is simply misleading. It if was done deliberately because the millennialism was seen as embarrassing or something, then it crosses the line from misleading to deceptive.&quot;

Garbage.  They took out the parts that were off topic. that portion of the letter is presented elsewhere in the manual: In the chapter that is concerned with those issues.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;They really couldn’t have put out a Joseph Smith manual that didn’t cut out important parts of his religious thought?&#8221;</p>
<p>They could have, if that were in any way at all the goal of the manual. </p>
<p>&#8220;Presenting the statement as if it were a non-millennial, emotionally even-keeled expression of familial love and duty is simply misleading. It if was done deliberately because the millennialism was seen as embarrassing or something, then it crosses the line from misleading to deceptive.&#8221;</p>
<p>Garbage.  They took out the parts that were off topic. that portion of the letter is presented elsewhere in the manual: In the chapter that is concerned with those issues.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/14/revising-the-joseph-smith-manual/#comment-131423</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7283#comment-131423</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sam B., the thing that I find troubling about this kind of editing is that it suggests that the editors think they know how to express the ideas in question better than Joseph Smith does.  If Joseph&#039;s primary thoughts were about the end of the world, and those thoughts triggered his love toward his wife and children --- as seems to be the sequence in the letter --- it&#039;s odd to me that the editors should decide that the love is worth preserving and discussing but not the context in which Joseph (at reasonable length!) chose to frame his statements of that love.  A statement of love in the face of apocalyptic premonitions is just different from that same statement without the apocalyptic context, in much the same way that filling my bathtub with water to take a bath is different from filling it on December 31, 1999, because I expected the world&#039;s infrastructure to crumble in the face of the Y2K bug.  So why repurpose the statement of love, stripping it of millennial context?  Presenting the statement as if it were a non-millennial, emotionally even-keeled expression of familial love and duty is simply misleading.  It if was done deliberately because the millennialism was seen as embarrassing or something, then it crosses the line from misleading to deceptive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam B., the thing that I find troubling about this kind of editing is that it suggests that the editors think they know how to express the ideas in question better than Joseph Smith does.  If Joseph&#8217;s primary thoughts were about the end of the world, and those thoughts triggered his love toward his wife and children &#8212; as seems to be the sequence in the letter &#8212; it&#8217;s odd to me that the editors should decide that the love is worth preserving and discussing but not the context in which Joseph (at reasonable length!) chose to frame his statements of that love.  A statement of love in the face of apocalyptic premonitions is just different from that same statement without the apocalyptic context, in much the same way that filling my bathtub with water to take a bath is different from filling it on December 31, 1999, because I expected the world&#8217;s infrastructure to crumble in the face of the Y2K bug.  So why repurpose the statement of love, stripping it of millennial context?  Presenting the statement as if it were a non-millennial, emotionally even-keeled expression of familial love and duty is simply misleading.  It if was done deliberately because the millennialism was seen as embarrassing or something, then it crosses the line from misleading to deceptive.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Sam B</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/14/revising-the-joseph-smith-manual/#comment-131418</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:19:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7283#comment-131418</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JNS,
I hate to be a defender of the manuals (because I hate the manuals), but why shouldn&#039;t they cut out important parts of JS&#039;s religious thought?  The lessons are topical--I have no idea which lesson Natalie&#039;s letter comes from, but if it&#039;s a lesson on love in marriage, JS&#039;s views on impending calamity and millenialism aren&#039;t relevant.  (FWIW, if the lesson is on preparing for the future, maybe the excised portion has some relevance.)

I certainly think the manuals would be better if they took complete discourses so that we got the context of what was being said, and so that we weren&#039;t prooftexting prophets&#039; statements, but prooftexting is decidedly what these manuals seem designed to do.  As others have said, if I want a systematic introduction to the Gospel as JS understood it, I am certainly going elsewhere than the JS manual.

I could, of course, be completely wrong--I&#039;ve been in Primary since the manual came into currency and haven&#039;t read a single paragraph of it--but I have to say, I&#039;m not concerned that it ellipses-out portions of the Prophet&#039;s thoughts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JNS,<br />
I hate to be a defender of the manuals (because I hate the manuals), but why shouldn&#8217;t they cut out important parts of JS&#8217;s religious thought?  The lessons are topical&#8211;I have no idea which lesson Natalie&#8217;s letter comes from, but if it&#8217;s a lesson on love in marriage, JS&#8217;s views on impending calamity and millenialism aren&#8217;t relevant.  (FWIW, if the lesson is on preparing for the future, maybe the excised portion has some relevance.)</p>
<p>I certainly think the manuals would be better if they took complete discourses so that we got the context of what was being said, and so that we weren&#8217;t prooftexting prophets&#8217; statements, but prooftexting is decidedly what these manuals seem designed to do.  As others have said, if I want a systematic introduction to the Gospel as JS understood it, I am certainly going elsewhere than the JS manual.</p>
<p>I could, of course, be completely wrong&#8211;I&#8217;ve been in Primary since the manual came into currency and haven&#8217;t read a single paragraph of it&#8211;but I have to say, I&#8217;m not concerned that it ellipses-out portions of the Prophet&#8217;s thoughts.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/14/revising-the-joseph-smith-manual/#comment-131414</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7283#comment-131414</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MCQ: &quot;Natalie, I agree with you.  JNS, I was.... just bunk.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MCQ: &#8220;Natalie, I agree with you.  JNS, I was&#8230;. just bunk.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/14/revising-the-joseph-smith-manual/#comment-131413</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7283#comment-131413</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MCQ, come on.  They really couldn&#039;t have put out a Joseph Smith manual that didn&#039;t cut out important parts of his religious thought?  Good grief.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MCQ, come on.  They really couldn&#8217;t have put out a Joseph Smith manual that didn&#8217;t cut out important parts of his religious thought?  Good grief.</p>
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