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	<title>Comments on: Tripartite existentialism</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/</link>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/#comment-135533</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 15:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7296#comment-135533</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tony, note that the KFD was in response to people that were claiming that he was a fallen prophet.  The whole discourse is set against that proposition and consequently the phrases like, &quot;if I am right&quot; should be viewed from that context.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony, note that the KFD was in response to people that were claiming that he was a fallen prophet.  The whole discourse is set against that proposition and consequently the phrases like, &#8220;if I am right&#8221; should be viewed from that context.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/#comment-135529</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 10:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7296#comment-135529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;That we are the glory (shekinah) of God.

Mark, This is an interesting point. It certainly gives a new meaning to the phrase &quot;the glory of God is intelligence&quot; (the meaning of which is nearly always misconstrued by Mormons).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;That we are the glory (shekinah) of God.</p>
<p>Mark, This is an interesting point. It certainly gives a new meaning to the phrase &#8220;the glory of God is intelligence&#8221; (the meaning of which is nearly always misconstrued by Mormons).</p>
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		<title>By: TonyD</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/#comment-135528</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TonyD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 07:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7296#comment-135528</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve often felt that religion lost something when it became acceptable to write and say the word &quot;God&quot;. That makes it too easy to project qualities into &quot;God&quot;.

In the KFD:
&lt;blockquote&gt;But &lt;strong&gt;if I am right&lt;/strong&gt; then I might be bold to say that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. He could not create himself–Intelligence exists upon a self existent principle–is a spirit from age to age &amp; no creation about it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I see this as Joseph Smith trying to explain revelation in words that just can&#039;t express the understanding he was given.  He&#039;s trying to use the words &quot;spirit&quot;, &quot;man&quot;, &quot;intelligences&quot;, &quot;creation&quot;, and &quot;God&quot; to describe something that we have no words to describe.

Still, the concept that a &quot;man&quot; has other -- essentially undefined -- aspects is a useful concept. It leaves open the possibility that statements made about &quot;man&quot; may only apply to particular aspects of man at particular times and under particular circumstances. (And perhaps not all &quot;man&quot;)

Thus, man can both experience death as we know it and be immortal -- a seeming contradiction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve often felt that religion lost something when it became acceptable to write and say the word &#8220;God&#8221;. That makes it too easy to project qualities into &#8220;God&#8221;.</p>
<p>In the KFD:</p>
<blockquote><p>But <strong>if I am right</strong> then I might be bold to say that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. He could not create himself–Intelligence exists upon a self existent principle–is a spirit from age to age &amp; no creation about it.</p></blockquote>
<p>I see this as Joseph Smith trying to explain revelation in words that just can&#8217;t express the understanding he was given.  He&#8217;s trying to use the words &#8220;spirit&#8221;, &#8220;man&#8221;, &#8220;intelligences&#8221;, &#8220;creation&#8221;, and &#8220;God&#8221; to describe something that we have no words to describe.</p>
<p>Still, the concept that a &#8220;man&#8221; has other &#8212; essentially undefined &#8212; aspects is a useful concept. It leaves open the possibility that statements made about &#8220;man&#8221; may only apply to particular aspects of man at particular times and under particular circumstances. (And perhaps not all &#8220;man&#8221;)</p>
<p>Thus, man can both experience death as we know it and be immortal &#8212; a seeming contradiction.</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/#comment-135524</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[FireTag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 04:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7296#comment-135524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hesitate to jump into this as a total outsider, but I think much of your problems with these ideas has to do with the lack of language (by Joseph Smith or all of the leaders who came after him) to conceptualize the concepts Joseph was seeing. In the 1830&#039;s people thought of preexistence as meaning before physical life and resurrection as after physical life.

But we&#039;ve known since the beginning of the 20th Century that &quot;before&quot; and &quot;after&quot; are entirely physical attributes. There are places in our physical universe (event horizons of any black hole) where time might as well be described as running sideways. Time, space, matter, and energy are all intimately involved in each other&#039;s existence, and we have no way of describing &quot;a time before time was created&quot;. Even the term &quot;creation&quot; carries the notion that there was a TIME when TIME did not exist and then a TIME when TIME existed.

Beings from within time like us can no more describe conditions of eternity than the blind can describe the sensation of seeing. You&#039;re trapped trying to answer the senseless question, &quot;What&#039;s the difference between a duck?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hesitate to jump into this as a total outsider, but I think much of your problems with these ideas has to do with the lack of language (by Joseph Smith or all of the leaders who came after him) to conceptualize the concepts Joseph was seeing. In the 1830&#8242;s people thought of preexistence as meaning before physical life and resurrection as after physical life.</p>
<p>But we&#8217;ve known since the beginning of the 20th Century that &#8220;before&#8221; and &#8220;after&#8221; are entirely physical attributes. There are places in our physical universe (event horizons of any black hole) where time might as well be described as running sideways. Time, space, matter, and energy are all intimately involved in each other&#8217;s existence, and we have no way of describing &#8220;a time before time was created&#8221;. Even the term &#8220;creation&#8221; carries the notion that there was a TIME when TIME did not exist and then a TIME when TIME existed.</p>
<p>Beings from within time like us can no more describe conditions of eternity than the blind can describe the sensation of seeing. You&#8217;re trapped trying to answer the senseless question, &#8220;What&#8217;s the difference between a duck?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark A. Clifford</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/#comment-135522</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark A. Clifford]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 00:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7296#comment-135522</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know that this is a little late coming.
I am a fan of &quot;co-equal&quot; meaning, &quot;the same as&quot; in substance. I like the idea that the glory of God, which proceeds forth from his presence and fills the immensity of space, which is called &quot;intelligence&quot;, is the stuff out of which I am made. Thus, I am &quot;co-equal with God (out of the same stuff), I am also his child, and I am ontologically necessary (as He is). God did not have power to create Himself, indeed; and so did not create us out of nothing but rather out of Himself.
My children are not ontologically inferior to me just because they were made out of part of me. And part of my wife. Instead, because they are the product of both of us, they are &quot;selves&quot; and &quot;our children&quot; and persons in thier own right.
I do not like the idea of the eternal uncreated self. I think it is oddball. It fails the monad test: why then are we all one kind of thing? How is the family of God related? Why does He get to tell us all what to do? 
But if I am created from His light (and Hers, do not get me wrong on that point, do not take my Mother in Heaven away from me, oh no no) then I understand how it is that:
We are his offspring
That we are the glory (shekinah) of God
That we are Gods.
If I have just been floating around the effluvium forever, and God somehow &quot;scooped me up&quot;, and is now bossing me around because He can, I feel lonely and icky. I know that this idea that we eminate from the Godhead is a minority view in Mormonism. But aint it grand? How about if all of the material creation also emanates from God? Yee Haw.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know that this is a little late coming.<br />
I am a fan of &#8220;co-equal&#8221; meaning, &#8220;the same as&#8221; in substance. I like the idea that the glory of God, which proceeds forth from his presence and fills the immensity of space, which is called &#8220;intelligence&#8221;, is the stuff out of which I am made. Thus, I am &#8220;co-equal with God (out of the same stuff), I am also his child, and I am ontologically necessary (as He is). God did not have power to create Himself, indeed; and so did not create us out of nothing but rather out of Himself.<br />
My children are not ontologically inferior to me just because they were made out of part of me. And part of my wife. Instead, because they are the product of both of us, they are &#8220;selves&#8221; and &#8220;our children&#8221; and persons in thier own right.<br />
I do not like the idea of the eternal uncreated self. I think it is oddball. It fails the monad test: why then are we all one kind of thing? How is the family of God related? Why does He get to tell us all what to do?<br />
But if I am created from His light (and Hers, do not get me wrong on that point, do not take my Mother in Heaven away from me, oh no no) then I understand how it is that:<br />
We are his offspring<br />
That we are the glory (shekinah) of God<br />
That we are Gods.<br />
If I have just been floating around the effluvium forever, and God somehow &#8220;scooped me up&#8221;, and is now bossing me around because He can, I feel lonely and icky. I know that this idea that we eminate from the Godhead is a minority view in Mormonism. But aint it grand? How about if all of the material creation also emanates from God? Yee Haw.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/#comment-135517</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jacob J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7296#comment-135517</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John, 

As much as we all love to appeal to the 1828 Webster&#039;s, I think many of the JS statements in question clearly use the word &quot;intelligence&quot; to mean &quot;something that is intelligent&quot; rather than &quot;spirit.&quot;  Look at the quote in #79 (above) from the KFD:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The mind of man–the intelligent part is coequal with God himself&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Here it is explicit that he is referring to the part of us that is intelligent.  The part that thinks.  He calls it &quot;the mind&quot; and then &quot;the intelligent part&quot; and then he goes on to refer to it as the spirit of man.  But, what does our eternal mind consist of?  Does his statement require that our spirit body existed from all eternity?  No.  Even if we took it that way, is there a distinction between spirit body and mind, or is mind an emergent property of a spirit brain, or what?  We simply have no guidance from JS on how to answer that question.  Thus, your dogmatic statement about what &quot;is false&quot; is stronger than the evidence you can marshal to back it up.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, </p>
<p>As much as we all love to appeal to the 1828 Webster&#8217;s, I think many of the JS statements in question clearly use the word &#8220;intelligence&#8221; to mean &#8220;something that is intelligent&#8221; rather than &#8220;spirit.&#8221;  Look at the quote in #79 (above) from the KFD:</p>
<blockquote><p>The mind of man–the intelligent part is coequal with God himself</p></blockquote>
<p>Here it is explicit that he is referring to the part of us that is intelligent.  The part that thinks.  He calls it &#8220;the mind&#8221; and then &#8220;the intelligent part&#8221; and then he goes on to refer to it as the spirit of man.  But, what does our eternal mind consist of?  Does his statement require that our spirit body existed from all eternity?  No.  Even if we took it that way, is there a distinction between spirit body and mind, or is mind an emergent property of a spirit brain, or what?  We simply have no guidance from JS on how to answer that question.  Thus, your dogmatic statement about what &#8220;is false&#8221; is stronger than the evidence you can marshal to back it up.</p>
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		<title>By: John Tvedtnes</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/#comment-135516</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Tvedtnes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:54:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7296#comment-135516</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Check Webster&#039;s 1828 dictionary and you&#039;ll see that the term &quot;intelligence&quot; is defined as a &quot;spirit.&quot; This is in complete accord with Abraham 3:22-23, where the terms &quot;intelligences,&quot; &quot;souls,&#039; and &quot;spirits&quot; are used interchangeably. The concept of us being thinking entities called &quot;intelligences&quot; before we became spirit is false.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check Webster&#8217;s 1828 dictionary and you&#8217;ll see that the term &#8220;intelligence&#8221; is defined as a &#8220;spirit.&#8221; This is in complete accord with Abraham 3:22-23, where the terms &#8220;intelligences,&#8221; &#8220;souls,&#8217; and &#8220;spirits&#8221; are used interchangeably. The concept of us being thinking entities called &#8220;intelligences&#8221; before we became spirit is false.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/#comment-131690</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[smb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7296#comment-131690</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stapes, you&#039;re leaving out Paracletes.
I agree with you that the language of adoption is probably the most apt description of what JSJ was teaching.

This does leave the tricky question, which JSJ may or may not have worked out, of what the Sonship of Jesus represents.  JSJ would have held that we follow Jesus in broad terms, so that may provide a clue about where JSJ thought we came from.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stapes, you&#8217;re leaving out Paracletes.<br />
I agree with you that the language of adoption is probably the most apt description of what JSJ was teaching.</p>
<p>This does leave the tricky question, which JSJ may or may not have worked out, of what the Sonship of Jesus represents.  JSJ would have held that we follow Jesus in broad terms, so that may provide a clue about where JSJ thought we came from.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/#comment-131673</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7296#comment-131673</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JNS,

There is no question that accepting the uncreated spirit model (I used to call it the &quot;whole cloth model of spirits&quot;) has far reaching theological implications.  That is why I argued against it for so long.  But I now am not so worried about those implications even if it leads to surprising places.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JNS,</p>
<p>There is no question that accepting the uncreated spirit model (I used to call it the &#8220;whole cloth model of spirits&#8221;) has far reaching theological implications.  That is why I argued against it for so long.  But I now am not so worried about those implications even if it leads to surprising places.</p>
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		<title>By: TonyD</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/15/tripartite-existentialism/#comment-131668</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TonyD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=7296#comment-131668</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On re-reading the KFD, I&#039;m again amazed by Joseph Smith. 

I am not usually a fan of hermeneutics, but in this case I see Joseph Smith using the word &quot;spirit&quot; to refer to a composition, and then various other statements referring to different parts of the composition. So, unless you already know what he is trying to say, it is almost unintelligible. 

Also, Joseph was both a prophet and a man. A couple of times he uses phrases like &quot;infer&quot; and &quot;in my estimation&quot;. In those cases, he seems to be trying to reconcile his worldly experiences with revelation.  I think too much weight is placed on those statements.

As to reasons why this is so important, the sermon itself gives several.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On re-reading the KFD, I&#8217;m again amazed by Joseph Smith. </p>
<p>I am not usually a fan of hermeneutics, but in this case I see Joseph Smith using the word &#8220;spirit&#8221; to refer to a composition, and then various other statements referring to different parts of the composition. So, unless you already know what he is trying to say, it is almost unintelligible. </p>
<p>Also, Joseph was both a prophet and a man. A couple of times he uses phrases like &#8220;infer&#8221; and &#8220;in my estimation&#8221;. In those cases, he seems to be trying to reconcile his worldly experiences with revelation.  I think too much weight is placed on those statements.</p>
<p>As to reasons why this is so important, the sermon itself gives several.</p>
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