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	<title>Comments on: Mormonism, a global counter-church? (Part II)</title>
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	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: diligentdave</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/19/part-ii/#comment-140834</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[diligentdave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 03:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8463#comment-140834</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good article. It addresses apparent groups or categories of members, former members, and tendencies among them. When I served in France 35 years ago (it is not as long ago as it appears), I found the cultural difference between US (or at least Utah) and Europe (or at least France) to be HUGE! What typified the &quot;group think&quot; / &quot;herd mentality&quot; of Europe (at least France) to be apparent in the Bastille Day celebration (July 14) when they did the fireworks display. The &#039;oohs&#039; and &#039;ahhs&#039; of the first fireworks from members of the crowd was quite comparable to that in the U.S. And quite spontaneously natural. But, after that, everyone remembered they were in public, and became instantly worried about what all of these others thought of their natural response. So, they stood afterwards in complete silence.

In some ways, I came to appreciate the European sensitivity for considering what others thought, inasmuch as it led one to not engage in annoyingly bad behavior.

However,  tradition has its negative points too. Political correctness has been important in Europe for millennia, I would suppose. Independent thought is encouraged as much as among European youth as getting piercings and tattoos is among American youth, supposedly demonstrating their &quot;individuality&quot;, as they all get tattoos and piercings in places I can&#039;t help but think have to be bothersome and problematic, to show their &quot;bravery&quot; to each other (Ouch!).

I long have done and continue to do all that I can to steep my own children (and wife) in the scriptures and doctrine, and having a clear and complete understanding of it as possible. The foundationless great and spacious has an increasingly greater allure to those of little understanding (but the relevancy of that symbollicaly charged dream has as much bearing on the world 2600+ years later as it did then). In Europe, the &quot;traditions&quot; (practices) of the world have very long held great sway. As Jesus pointed out nearly 2000 years ago, if it were possible, even the very elect shall be deceived. (Of course, proof positive of the &#039;very elect&#039; is that they are not deceived).

This said, I felt the &#039;Monsieur Durant&#039; &quot;discussions&quot; (in which my mostly Catholic friends in France never seemed to have memorized their Protestant replies to that script), showed that the (LDS) Church put no thought and little appropriate effort into adapting their message for each segmented audience.

While I am an engaged and true believer (in &#039;The (LDS) Church&#039;), I feel that the Church&#039;s &quot;brethren&quot; (in SLC) and bureaucracy are often slow and reluctant to respond appropriately to what different parts of the world need as far as adaptation of teachings and responses to localized needs.

Calvin Grondahl&#039;s &quot;Marketing Precedes the Miracle&quot; title for his Mormon cartoon book put out a quarter century ago always sounded like a sacreligious spoof on President Kimball&#039;s &quot;Faith Precedes the Miracle&quot; book. (It was). But in another vein, truth often makes humor funnier (or there often is some amount of truth in most/much humor).

Canned messages and solutions won&#039;t help too many. But a better understanding of the scriptures and of the world today as it is (and not as it is or should be) would be helpful.

As an institution, the Church is both trying to help members and non-members repent (turn to correct practices - which draws them toward God). Church members everywhere need to greatly increase and develop their understanding of the things of God (much of it coming, at the core, from the scriptures), as well as from/through prayer and revelation with/from God.

We need a spiritual renaissance in the Church. Remember, a spiritual renaissance/awakening basically began with one man, Abinadi, in a remote portion of the &quot;vineyard&quot;, influenced one man, Alma, who rose to the task, influenced others, and brought them back to the main body of their culture and Church.

We need such a miracle today!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good article. It addresses apparent groups or categories of members, former members, and tendencies among them. When I served in France 35 years ago (it is not as long ago as it appears), I found the cultural difference between US (or at least Utah) and Europe (or at least France) to be HUGE! What typified the &#8220;group think&#8221; / &#8220;herd mentality&#8221; of Europe (at least France) to be apparent in the Bastille Day celebration (July 14) when they did the fireworks display. The &#8216;oohs&#8217; and &#8216;ahhs&#8217; of the first fireworks from members of the crowd was quite comparable to that in the U.S. And quite spontaneously natural. But, after that, everyone remembered they were in public, and became instantly worried about what all of these others thought of their natural response. So, they stood afterwards in complete silence.</p>
<p>In some ways, I came to appreciate the European sensitivity for considering what others thought, inasmuch as it led one to not engage in annoyingly bad behavior.</p>
<p>However,  tradition has its negative points too. Political correctness has been important in Europe for millennia, I would suppose. Independent thought is encouraged as much as among European youth as getting piercings and tattoos is among American youth, supposedly demonstrating their &#8220;individuality&#8221;, as they all get tattoos and piercings in places I can&#8217;t help but think have to be bothersome and problematic, to show their &#8220;bravery&#8221; to each other (Ouch!).</p>
<p>I long have done and continue to do all that I can to steep my own children (and wife) in the scriptures and doctrine, and having a clear and complete understanding of it as possible. The foundationless great and spacious has an increasingly greater allure to those of little understanding (but the relevancy of that symbollicaly charged dream has as much bearing on the world 2600+ years later as it did then). In Europe, the &#8220;traditions&#8221; (practices) of the world have very long held great sway. As Jesus pointed out nearly 2000 years ago, if it were possible, even the very elect shall be deceived. (Of course, proof positive of the &#8216;very elect&#8217; is that they are not deceived).</p>
<p>This said, I felt the &#8216;Monsieur Durant&#8217; &#8220;discussions&#8221; (in which my mostly Catholic friends in France never seemed to have memorized their Protestant replies to that script), showed that the (LDS) Church put no thought and little appropriate effort into adapting their message for each segmented audience.</p>
<p>While I am an engaged and true believer (in &#8216;The (LDS) Church&#8217;), I feel that the Church&#8217;s &#8220;brethren&#8221; (in SLC) and bureaucracy are often slow and reluctant to respond appropriately to what different parts of the world need as far as adaptation of teachings and responses to localized needs.</p>
<p>Calvin Grondahl&#8217;s &#8220;Marketing Precedes the Miracle&#8221; title for his Mormon cartoon book put out a quarter century ago always sounded like a sacreligious spoof on President Kimball&#8217;s &#8220;Faith Precedes the Miracle&#8221; book. (It was). But in another vein, truth often makes humor funnier (or there often is some amount of truth in most/much humor).</p>
<p>Canned messages and solutions won&#8217;t help too many. But a better understanding of the scriptures and of the world today as it is (and not as it is or should be) would be helpful.</p>
<p>As an institution, the Church is both trying to help members and non-members repent (turn to correct practices &#8211; which draws them toward God). Church members everywhere need to greatly increase and develop their understanding of the things of God (much of it coming, at the core, from the scriptures), as well as from/through prayer and revelation with/from God.</p>
<p>We need a spiritual renaissance in the Church. Remember, a spiritual renaissance/awakening basically began with one man, Abinadi, in a remote portion of the &#8220;vineyard&#8221;, influenced one man, Alma, who rose to the task, influenced others, and brought them back to the main body of their culture and Church.</p>
<p>We need such a miracle today!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: BHodges</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/19/part-ii/#comment-140424</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BHodges]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8463#comment-140424</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[12: I was reading about it in a book and don&#039;t have it handy right now. I am not sure if it is available online or not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>12: I was reading about it in a book and don&#8217;t have it handy right now. I am not sure if it is available online or not.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: France M</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/19/part-ii/#comment-140361</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[France M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8463#comment-140361</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mike S points out nominal growth in membership, which is also true in France. However, from what I&#039;ve observed most of that growth is among immigrants, especially from Africa. I suspect this is also the case in the Netherlands and other European countries. In a congregation I attended in Paris a couple of years ago (don&#039;t remember if it was a ward or branch), native French were a minority. The bishop or branch president was an American businessman.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike S points out nominal growth in membership, which is also true in France. However, from what I&#8217;ve observed most of that growth is among immigrants, especially from Africa. I suspect this is also the case in the Netherlands and other European countries. In a congregation I attended in Paris a couple of years ago (don&#8217;t remember if it was a ward or branch), native French were a minority. The bishop or branch president was an American businessman.</p>
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		<title>By: ritesh</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/19/part-ii/#comment-140356</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ritesh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:14:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8463#comment-140356</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[hi..
I read this article ,three times but I think abuse of children in christanity or any religion is done from more than 500 years by priests ,fathers malas .It can’t finish any religion ,but this is our duty to stop abuse of the children by sexuality or any work .This is the problem of most of the countries with different religions.Join September 1 to make a genuine difference through a first day for humanity’s children .
—–
Hardy
—-
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.september12009.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Sept 1&lt;/a&gt;--Sept 1]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hi..<br />
I read this article ,three times but I think abuse of children in christanity or any religion is done from more than 500 years by priests ,fathers malas .It can’t finish any religion ,but this is our duty to stop abuse of the children by sexuality or any work .This is the problem of most of the countries with different religions.Join September 1 to make a genuine difference through a first day for humanity’s children .<br />
—–<br />
Hardy<br />
—-<br />
<a href="http://www.september12009.com" rel="nofollow">Sept 1</a>&#8211;Sept 1</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hellmut</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/19/part-ii/#comment-140350</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hellmut]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 02:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8463#comment-140350</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The best way to disillusion active European Mormon is to send them on missions.  The generation preceding me did not go on missions.  They did not believe that a mission was compatible with an academic career.

They completed their degrees and served as Bishops and Stake Presidents.  Uchtdorf is the prime example.  There are another dozen like him in Germany.

Many of my generation went on missions.  My estimate is that less than 20% of us remain active.  Some of us are in jail.  Many others are divorced.

The numbers game and the bureaucratic chicanery was just more than any of us could stomach.  In Germany, and I suppose that the same is true of the Netherlands, the Congregationalist roots of Mormonism are a lot more important.

The inefficiency and authoritarianism of the correlated Church was more than any of us had bargained for.

It took my peers and us more than ten years to figure our why we were so miserable but in hindsight, all of us agree, the full time missions set us on a path that led us straight out of the Church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best way to disillusion active European Mormon is to send them on missions.  The generation preceding me did not go on missions.  They did not believe that a mission was compatible with an academic career.</p>
<p>They completed their degrees and served as Bishops and Stake Presidents.  Uchtdorf is the prime example.  There are another dozen like him in Germany.</p>
<p>Many of my generation went on missions.  My estimate is that less than 20% of us remain active.  Some of us are in jail.  Many others are divorced.</p>
<p>The numbers game and the bureaucratic chicanery was just more than any of us could stomach.  In Germany, and I suppose that the same is true of the Netherlands, the Congregationalist roots of Mormonism are a lot more important.</p>
<p>The inefficiency and authoritarianism of the correlated Church was more than any of us had bargained for.</p>
<p>It took my peers and us more than ten years to figure our why we were so miserable but in hindsight, all of us agree, the full time missions set us on a path that led us straight out of the Church.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hellmut</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/19/part-ii/#comment-140349</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hellmut]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 02:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8463#comment-140349</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are not many Europeans that take Republicanism seriously, Hawkgrrrl, but there is a deficit in adaptation.  For example, there are Mormons that are following prophetic advice that really does not apply to Europe and in some cases may turn out to be ruinous.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are not many Europeans that take Republicanism seriously, Hawkgrrrl, but there is a deficit in adaptation.  For example, there are Mormons that are following prophetic advice that really does not apply to Europe and in some cases may turn out to be ruinous.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hellmut</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/19/part-ii/#comment-140348</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hellmut]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 02:44:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8463#comment-140348</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Please, Andrea, nobody in Europe considers the state divine.  I like the remainder of your post but that divine state hypothesis is out there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please, Andrea, nobody in Europe considers the state divine.  I like the remainder of your post but that divine state hypothesis is out there.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Velikiye Kniaz</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/19/part-ii/#comment-140339</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Velikiye Kniaz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 18:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8463#comment-140339</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE: Kyle M. #12
      I fully agree that the remaining 28% are some truly incredible people. One of the reasons that I frequent the &#039;Bloggernacle&#039; is that I find a good many of the contributors to be both deep thinkers and profoundly spiritual. It is frequently spiritually uplifting to read what is written by the contributors on these sites. They give me hope and refresh my tired spirit.
      Perhaps it is my convert zeal that has me expecting more of contemporary Latter-day Saints. Living in Utah within walking distance of Temple Square and having a strong sense of history, I cannot shake the utter awe and deep respect I feel for these pioneer Mormons who settled here and built the commonwealth of Deseret. I doubt that I would have been equal to the task, had I been of their generation. (Perhaps that is why I heard the Gospel when I did, in the 20th century.) I can fully empathize with Saints who struggle to live the Gospel as it ought to be lived because I am one of them. But I when I joined the Church I did not look upon the decision as being a casual one. I felt that I was making a commitment to my Father in Heaven and to my Saviour and it wasn&#039;t taken lightly. Due to particulars of my own situation, it hasn&#039;t always been easy to remain in the Church, but I will never leave it. (They can throw me out of the Church, but they&#039;ll never throw the Gospel and Church out of me.) That is why I find it so hard to understand the other 72% who once freely elected to join us and now who thoughtlessly turn away.  
      As for myself, I will die a Mormon. I love my Heavenly Father and the Saviour. I love the Restored Gospel through whose principles I have come closer to my Creator than I ever believed possible. I love this Church and it&#039;s people. I am certainly not a candidate for &#039;best Mormon&#039;, but Mormon is what I am and what I will remain. All those others will continue to have my empathetic concern, compassion and prayers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: Kyle M. #12<br />
      I fully agree that the remaining 28% are some truly incredible people. One of the reasons that I frequent the &#8216;Bloggernacle&#8217; is that I find a good many of the contributors to be both deep thinkers and profoundly spiritual. It is frequently spiritually uplifting to read what is written by the contributors on these sites. They give me hope and refresh my tired spirit.<br />
      Perhaps it is my convert zeal that has me expecting more of contemporary Latter-day Saints. Living in Utah within walking distance of Temple Square and having a strong sense of history, I cannot shake the utter awe and deep respect I feel for these pioneer Mormons who settled here and built the commonwealth of Deseret. I doubt that I would have been equal to the task, had I been of their generation. (Perhaps that is why I heard the Gospel when I did, in the 20th century.) I can fully empathize with Saints who struggle to live the Gospel as it ought to be lived because I am one of them. But I when I joined the Church I did not look upon the decision as being a casual one. I felt that I was making a commitment to my Father in Heaven and to my Saviour and it wasn&#8217;t taken lightly. Due to particulars of my own situation, it hasn&#8217;t always been easy to remain in the Church, but I will never leave it. (They can throw me out of the Church, but they&#8217;ll never throw the Gospel and Church out of me.) That is why I find it so hard to understand the other 72% who once freely elected to join us and now who thoughtlessly turn away.<br />
      As for myself, I will die a Mormon. I love my Heavenly Father and the Saviour. I love the Restored Gospel through whose principles I have come closer to my Creator than I ever believed possible. I love this Church and it&#8217;s people. I am certainly not a candidate for &#8216;best Mormon&#8217;, but Mormon is what I am and what I will remain. All those others will continue to have my empathetic concern, compassion and prayers.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/19/part-ii/#comment-140331</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 11:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8463#comment-140331</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting analysis. The decline in traditional religion in Europe can be traced to at least three events. 

First would be the immigration of the more religious types to the U.S. over the past 300 years.

Second would be the general loss in faith in god due to two very destructive wars in the 20th century.

Third would be the rise of the State in taking care of everyone&#039;s needs. God is a great emotional fall-back mechanism for those who worry about the present and the future. Now, the state takes care of everything: food, shelter, retirement, health care, child care. When Europeans lost faith in a traditional god, they found faith in a new god, the State. The new god provides more than the old god.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting analysis. The decline in traditional religion in Europe can be traced to at least three events. </p>
<p>First would be the immigration of the more religious types to the U.S. over the past 300 years.</p>
<p>Second would be the general loss in faith in god due to two very destructive wars in the 20th century.</p>
<p>Third would be the rise of the State in taking care of everyone&#8217;s needs. God is a great emotional fall-back mechanism for those who worry about the present and the future. Now, the state takes care of everything: food, shelter, retirement, health care, child care. When Europeans lost faith in a traditional god, they found faith in a new god, the State. The new god provides more than the old god.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike S</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/19/part-ii/#comment-140325</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 05:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8463#comment-140325</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#12:

Re: whether the church is &quot;growing or shrinking&quot;, here are the statistics for the Netherlands for the past 30 years:

1978: 7486 members
1988: 6600 members
1998: 7500 members
2008: 8548 members

Average activity rate for country: 30%

Source: http://www.cumorah.com/?target=main&amp;wid=150]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#12:</p>
<p>Re: whether the church is &#8220;growing or shrinking&#8221;, here are the statistics for the Netherlands for the past 30 years:</p>
<p>1978: 7486 members<br />
1988: 6600 members<br />
1998: 7500 members<br />
2008: 8548 members</p>
<p>Average activity rate for country: 30%</p>
<p>Source: <a href="http://www.cumorah.com/?target=main&#038;wid=150" rel="nofollow">http://www.cumorah.com/?target=main&#038;wid=150</a></p>
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