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	<title>Comments on: Mormonism, a global counter-church? (Part III)</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/20/mormonism-a-global-counter-church-part-iii/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Tracy Hall Jr</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/20/mormonism-a-global-counter-church-part-iii/#comment-140407</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tracy Hall Jr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 04:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8465#comment-140407</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Diversity in doctrine and practice is indeed an appropriate measure of the worldliness of a religion. I am quite comfortable viewing Church not as a “world religion,” but as a “global counter-church” positioned in opposition to much that is worldly and politically correct.

The kind of “diversity” observed in Roman Catholicism and Islam is possible only because each disavows continuing revelation.

It is continuing revelation, not only to prophets and apostles, but to individual members, that produces the miracle of uniformity throughout the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I actually see “correlation” as a sign of the true church. What other organization could possibly function with a requirement for unanimity in all its councils?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/107/27#27 

A photo-essay by Scott Proctor of his visit to the Nungua First Ward, Accra Ghana Stake, convinces me that any faithful Latter-day Saint from “Deseret” would feel very much at home in Ghana. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/photoessay/040204nungua.html

Although there is no doubt still much room for growth in numbers, prophecy indicates that we will always be numerically small, but that our influence will become sufficient to arouse world-wide enmity. The backlash to our involvement in California&#039;s Proposition Eight might well foreshadow  extermination orders yet to come.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/14/12-14#12 

Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr&#039;gmail&#039;com]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diversity in doctrine and practice is indeed an appropriate measure of the worldliness of a religion. I am quite comfortable viewing Church not as a “world religion,” but as a “global counter-church” positioned in opposition to much that is worldly and politically correct.</p>
<p>The kind of “diversity” observed in Roman Catholicism and Islam is possible only because each disavows continuing revelation.</p>
<p>It is continuing revelation, not only to prophets and apostles, but to individual members, that produces the miracle of uniformity throughout the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I actually see “correlation” as a sign of the true church. What other organization could possibly function with a requirement for unanimity in all its councils?<br />
<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/107/27#27" rel="nofollow">http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/107/27#27</a> </p>
<p>A photo-essay by Scott Proctor of his visit to the Nungua First Ward, Accra Ghana Stake, convinces me that any faithful Latter-day Saint from “Deseret” would feel very much at home in Ghana. <a href="http://www.meridianmagazine.com/photoessay/040204nungua.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.meridianmagazine.com/photoessay/040204nungua.html</a></p>
<p>Although there is no doubt still much room for growth in numbers, prophecy indicates that we will always be numerically small, but that our influence will become sufficient to arouse world-wide enmity. The backlash to our involvement in California&#8217;s Proposition Eight might well foreshadow  extermination orders yet to come.<br />
<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/14/12-14#12" rel="nofollow">http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/14/12-14#12</a> </p>
<p>Tracy Hall Jr<br />
hthalljr&#8217;gmail&#8217;com</p>
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		<title>By: BobW</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/20/mormonism-a-global-counter-church-part-iii/#comment-140393</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BobW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8465#comment-140393</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Andrea (#1). Here in Santa Cruz, CA, lots of people have come here to really get away from the Church. I have visited lots of inactives and have found few who are cultural Mormons. There are antagonistic lapsed members and friendly lapsed members who will talk to you as long as you refrain from trying to get them to come to Church. 

Lots of LDS students at UCSC fall into the category of getting away. 

There are always a few people who have drifted away but have sort of a fuzzy warm feeling. These are few and far between here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Andrea (#1). Here in Santa Cruz, CA, lots of people have come here to really get away from the Church. I have visited lots of inactives and have found few who are cultural Mormons. There are antagonistic lapsed members and friendly lapsed members who will talk to you as long as you refrain from trying to get them to come to Church. </p>
<p>Lots of LDS students at UCSC fall into the category of getting away. </p>
<p>There are always a few people who have drifted away but have sort of a fuzzy warm feeling. These are few and far between here.</p>
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		<title>By: britt</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/20/mormonism-a-global-counter-church-part-iii/#comment-140385</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[britt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:34:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8465#comment-140385</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just have annecdotal evidence.

Here in Texas we have plenty of people who show up once a year, twice a year.  Or those who go through spurts of activity then lapse, then spurt again.  Perhaps it&#039;s not a matter in Texas of the LDS church being everywhere, but in Christianity being everywhere.  Perhaps being asked by everyone &quot;do you have a church home?&quot; some casual Mormons are quick to say they do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just have annecdotal evidence.</p>
<p>Here in Texas we have plenty of people who show up once a year, twice a year.  Or those who go through spurts of activity then lapse, then spurt again.  Perhaps it&#8217;s not a matter in Texas of the LDS church being everywhere, but in Christianity being everywhere.  Perhaps being asked by everyone &#8220;do you have a church home?&#8221; some casual Mormons are quick to say they do.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mansfield</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/20/mormonism-a-global-counter-church-part-iii/#comment-140382</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Mansfield]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8465#comment-140382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are more varieties of the Mormon experience than &quot;Deseret&quot; and &quot;rest of world.&quot;  In much of the American West, Latter-day Saints are a significant fraction of the population, but still only a fraction.  That is also a place with enough ongoing incidental contact with the Church and its members, that a Mormon identity persists for many non-participating members, and returns to activity happen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are more varieties of the Mormon experience than &#8220;Deseret&#8221; and &#8220;rest of world.&#8221;  In much of the American West, Latter-day Saints are a significant fraction of the population, but still only a fraction.  That is also a place with enough ongoing incidental contact with the Church and its members, that a Mormon identity persists for many non-participating members, and returns to activity happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Hellmut</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/20/mormonism-a-global-counter-church-part-iii/#comment-140372</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hellmut]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 00:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8465#comment-140372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Jeff.  It seems to me that the nature of the missionary life during the forties is irrelevant since Germans did not serve missions in large numbers.  

My point was that return missionaries were rare until eighties and that my generation was more likely to leave Mormonism than its non-serving predecessors.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Jeff.  It seems to me that the nature of the missionary life during the forties is irrelevant since Germans did not serve missions in large numbers.  </p>
<p>My point was that return missionaries were rare until eighties and that my generation was more likely to leave Mormonism than its non-serving predecessors.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/20/mormonism-a-global-counter-church-part-iii/#comment-140369</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8465#comment-140369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know about the disparity in mission service, Hellmut.  If your hypothesis correct, of which I am not convinced, there was still a dramatic change in missionary life from 1940 to today, that isn&#039;t accounted for.

My contention with this work is similar to my comment in part 1.  It seems to me that the attribute that the author is ascribing as a delimiter of world-religion status arises as a function of societal prominence, not with anything about the religion.  For example, there probably  aren&#039;t a lot of casual Muslims in rural Alabama.  I&#039;m also interested in how the demography of the Church plays into this.  If the bulk of the Church is converts, how does that affect identity?  Also, and interesting counter point to Europe is Latin America   - one of &lt;a href=&quot;http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/02/19/ideas-post-copacabana/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;David Knowlton&#039;s post&lt;/a&gt; comes to mind.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know about the disparity in mission service, Hellmut.  If your hypothesis correct, of which I am not convinced, there was still a dramatic change in missionary life from 1940 to today, that isn&#8217;t accounted for.</p>
<p>My contention with this work is similar to my comment in part 1.  It seems to me that the attribute that the author is ascribing as a delimiter of world-religion status arises as a function of societal prominence, not with anything about the religion.  For example, there probably  aren&#8217;t a lot of casual Muslims in rural Alabama.  I&#8217;m also interested in how the demography of the Church plays into this.  If the bulk of the Church is converts, how does that affect identity?  Also, and interesting counter point to Europe is Latin America   &#8211; one of <a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/02/19/ideas-post-copacabana/" rel="nofollow">David Knowlton&#8217;s post</a> comes to mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Hellmut</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/20/mormonism-a-global-counter-church-part-iii/#comment-140366</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hellmut]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8465#comment-140366</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with you, Andrea, that there are no cultural Mormons in Europe.  At least, I have not seen them.

There are Mormons, however, who are semi-active, show up every other week, don&#039;t meet their financial and calling obligations but are ardent about their Mormon identity.

I would term those people casual Mormons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you, Andrea, that there are no cultural Mormons in Europe.  At least, I have not seen them.</p>
<p>There are Mormons, however, who are semi-active, show up every other week, don&#8217;t meet their financial and calling obligations but are ardent about their Mormon identity.</p>
<p>I would term those people casual Mormons.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/20/mormonism-a-global-counter-church-part-iii/#comment-140360</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8465#comment-140360</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Speaking from personal observation, it&#039;s much easier to make a clean break from the church when your coworkers, neighbors, friends, etc are not LDS. 

It depends on what you call casual Mormons. In places where Mormons are less than 10% of the population, a majority of &quot;official&quot; members are not only inactive, but a large percentage don&#039;t even consider themselves Mormon.

Contrast that with Utah where people who haven&#039;t attended church in 40 years or more still vocally and proudly call themselves Mormon.

In Utah, the connection is not just religious. It&#039;s cultural, historical and personal. Most inactive Utah Mormons are descendants of the original pioneers. Most of their friends and relatives are Mormon. That&#039;s a lot to walk away from.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking from personal observation, it&#8217;s much easier to make a clean break from the church when your coworkers, neighbors, friends, etc are not LDS. </p>
<p>It depends on what you call casual Mormons. In places where Mormons are less than 10% of the population, a majority of &#8220;official&#8221; members are not only inactive, but a large percentage don&#8217;t even consider themselves Mormon.</p>
<p>Contrast that with Utah where people who haven&#8217;t attended church in 40 years or more still vocally and proudly call themselves Mormon.</p>
<p>In Utah, the connection is not just religious. It&#8217;s cultural, historical and personal. Most inactive Utah Mormons are descendants of the original pioneers. Most of their friends and relatives are Mormon. That&#8217;s a lot to walk away from.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/20/mormonism-a-global-counter-church-part-iii/#comment-140359</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8465#comment-140359</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Most people, RMs or otherwise, don&#039;t go to graduate school. A majority of people don&#039;t complete college (includes those that never went in the first place) and most college graduates don&#039;t go on to graduate school so the scattering-everywhere-to-go-grad-school theory has very limited application. Even so, many of those that do eventually come back to Utah.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most people, RMs or otherwise, don&#8217;t go to graduate school. A majority of people don&#8217;t complete college (includes those that never went in the first place) and most college graduates don&#8217;t go on to graduate school so the scattering-everywhere-to-go-grad-school theory has very limited application. Even so, many of those that do eventually come back to Utah.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Parkin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/06/20/mormonism-a-global-counter-church-part-iii/#comment-140353</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas Parkin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 05:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8465#comment-140353</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;In the long run, they will grind many committed Mormons to pieces&quot;

I suppose it depends on what you mean by committed Mormons, Hellmut. If you mean dogmatic Mormons who are committed to outward forms and are fixed in dogmatic answers, then I suppose that you are almost certainly correct. If you mean covenant keeping, temple attending Mormons who are spiritually mature and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, then I&#039;m afraid there is an aspect of the religion that you continue to miss. But, possibly, these are not the folks you are targeting?  ~]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In the long run, they will grind many committed Mormons to pieces&#8221;</p>
<p>I suppose it depends on what you mean by committed Mormons, Hellmut. If you mean dogmatic Mormons who are committed to outward forms and are fixed in dogmatic answers, then I suppose that you are almost certainly correct. If you mean covenant keeping, temple attending Mormons who are spiritually mature and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, then I&#8217;m afraid there is an aspect of the religion that you continue to miss. But, possibly, these are not the folks you are targeting?  ~</p>
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