Comments on: The Milk & Strippings Story, Thomas B. Marsh, and Brigham Young

By: Ellis

Ellis — Thu, 06 Aug 2009 20:43:54 +0000

This is really an interesting post. I think there is a lot more to the story than is told even here. While researching my ancestry I discovered that one of early church ancestors left Utah to return to Missouri and become a member of the RLDS. He influenced by Thomas B. March who spoke at a meeting of others who had done the same thing. So my question is, what was Marsh doing in Utah in the first place and what was were his actual intentions?

By: Chris H.

Chris H. — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 16:27:39 +0000

I just used this post (though without proper citation) to respond to the Sunday School lesson (it is still going right now).

Thanks John

By: TStevens

TStevens — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:34:23 +0000

SOrry it has taken me so long to respond, but I never wrote the reference down and I do not personally own the book American Moses. So I had to order it from the library and then skim it until I found it again.

American Moses, Leonard Arrington, page 282
Brigham kept up a steady campaign of request for contributions. “Come on you tobacco chewers,” he said. “Put your $1,000 into the Poor Fund and I will give you liberty to chew another year.” He himself donated extensively of his own wealth.

Arrington gives the following for his reference;
Remarks at conference, 8 September 1850, General Minutes, BYP.

Maybe I am reading into that too liberally, but it does seem he slod one year exemptions to the WOW for a $1000 donation to the PEF.

By: JimD

JimD — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:06:34 +0000

If you read all of Marsh’s comments at JD 5:208, you’ll see that he’s not some random victim of a “prosperity gospel” imposed by the big, bad Brigham Young. Marsh himself stated very clearly that his troubles were largely the self-inflicted result of his own apostasy.

By: Martie

Martie — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:15:07 +0000

Don’t have time to read every post but several people have used the names George Albert Smith and George A. Smith interchangeably in this story.

George A. Smith was the one who told the Thomas Marsh story; George Albert Smith is his grandson and Church President from 1945-1951 and the who responded to the Unitarian minister’s letter regarding “when the brethren speak the thinking has been done.” George A. was Joseph Smith’s first cousin and counselor to BY. John Henry Smith (not mentioned in this post) was George A.’s son and father of George Albert Smith.

Sorry, those are family members and l like to keep the genealogy straight.

By: Kevin Barney

Kevin Barney — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 02:35:53 +0000

So I’m watching Biography on A&E’s Biography. And they’re talking about Joe Perry leaving the band in 1979. There had been a lot of tension between Steven Tyler and Joe, and they had been heavily into narcotics. But the incident that sparked it all was after one show in Cleveland, when Joe Perry’s wife got into it backstage with Tom Hamilton’s wife. One of them was holding a cup of milk and threw it at the other. In retrospect, Joe Perry comments how the argument literally began over spilt milk.

This reminded me of the whole milk strippings story.

By: Stephen M (Ethesis)

Stephen M (Ethesis) — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 21:31:37 +0000

What if DKL constantly discussed himself in a set of terms and then, others used the same set? Would we be more or less critical of them than we would if someone used the same set of terms to talk about Ray?

With TBM, he had a narrative he used to discuss himself and his relationship to the Church. BY’s comments were in sync with that narrative, one that TMB repeated a number of times.

I think that matters. I knew someone who would talk in Church about their sins and how they returned to the Church. While people normally would not talk about “X, who had a history of Y” they did about this brother. He invited and created the narrative people used to discuss his experiences and their meaning.

So did TBM, which I think we tend to miss in these discussions. I should have been clearer when I mentioned this before.

By: Margaret Young

Margaret Young — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 00:03:33 +0000

Okay. Positive stories about Brigham Young:
Presently, he is commonly perceived as a very racist man, though Armand Mauss says he was merely a run-of-the-mill racist, quite representative of his time. However, anecdotal history (memoirs or journals) suggest that Brigham Young often had Hark Lay (a slave in the vanguard pioneer company) sing for him, and that Green Flake’s children (Abraham and Lucinda) felt quite comfortable sitting on Brigham Young’s lap, as Green (also a slave in the vanguard company) was a frequent visitor in the Young home.
What I know for sure, since I have copies of the actual letters, is that Brigham Young kept Green Flake from being returned to slavery when the widowed Agnes Flake requested (through Amasa Lyman) that Flake be sold and the proceeds sent to her in California. A buyer had even been arranged (Thomas Williams). Young said he didn’t know where Green Flake was, but that the last time he had seen him, Flake was ill. This was not quite the case. Since Young had given several acres of property to Green Flake, which Flake was taming, he knew very well where he was–and that he wasn’t ill.
Also, in Nauvoo, Jane Manning was married to Isaac in Brigham Young’s home.
So categorizing him as a racist doesn’t really accommodate these little details of his life. So much depends on focus.
I’ve felt that I need to become better acquainted with BY (especially after Hamer’s post) if for no other reason than that someone I admire–Gene England–considered Young the most brilliant mind of his time. England wrote a book about Young. I’ve got to read that. And then someone needs to write the whole story of Thomas Marsh.

By: Dan

Dan — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 23:27:21 +0000

you guys are failing me here…com’on…positive stories about BY please.

By: Scott B.

Scott B. — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:58:28 +0000

I am confused. How does emulating Urban II get at the positive side to BY?