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	<title>Comments on: The Ethics of Batman: The Dark Knight</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/06/the-ethics-of-batman-the-dark-knight/</link>
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		<title>By: john f.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/06/the-ethics-of-batman-the-dark-knight/#comment-141787</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john f.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8643#comment-141787</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really liked the movie.  As mentioned above, the movie shed some of Gotham&#039;s surreality.  In contrast to all previous Batman movies, this Gotham was a light-flooded modern city of steel and glass.  The &quot;Batcave&quot; was also an antiseptically sparse and clean industrial warehouse/showroom type environment that was, if anything, too well lit.  And no more Georgian/Gothic hybrid Wayne mansion -- we get an airy, transparent penthouse entirely surrounded by glass and sparsely furnished.

Underneath this glossy and spartan surface lurks the darkness of Gotham&#039;s moral decay and it is truly a place where crime and corruption hold sway.  Like many doomed empires in need of saving, Gotham is corrupt at its core.  This is where the comic book motif comes back in -- because it is a comic book, we don&#039;t have to watch real life play out on the screen; instead, we get fiction and something to think about in that pretty little package of our armed ninja &lt;i&gt;deus ex machina&lt;/i&gt;.  

Of course there is the superficial irony that Gotham&#039;s &quot;Dark Knight&quot; is its savior -- and one of the few incorruptible good guys (along with Rachel, Gordon and Fox), and its &quot;White Knight&quot; is corruptible through the promise of position if only he can get things to go his way.  The desire for reputation and position outweigh moral sense, even though the ultimate goals the White Knight desires are worthy (the elimination of the criminal core of Gotham).  There is a constant &quot;feeling&quot; in the movie that Dent would be willing to cut corners to get the bad guys; unlike Batman, though, Dent has to do so while maintaining appearances. Ultimately, Dent&#039;s true character as two-face is revealed when a tragedy in his own life topples him and he joins the ranks of Gotham&#039;s villains, blindly seeking revenge.

Batman, by contrast, does not break like Dent does.  Batman is flexible and can accommodate difficult truths, such as the arbitrary influence of chance in people&#039;s lives.  Dent looks to chance as he flips his coin but breaks when it doesn&#039;t go his way.

In giving Gotham its White Knight, Batman gives it hope.  In fact, what I primarily took from the movie was a sense of hope -- I thought the medium really worked to get that across.  It is a glum hope, a melancholy hope, but in this feeling the movie sheds its comic book nature in favor of a dose of realism after all.  In real life, there usually isn&#039;t a &lt;i&gt;deus ex machina&lt;/i&gt; (although some have been fortunate enough to benefit from one), just a constant, melancholy hope.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really liked the movie.  As mentioned above, the movie shed some of Gotham&#8217;s surreality.  In contrast to all previous Batman movies, this Gotham was a light-flooded modern city of steel and glass.  The &#8220;Batcave&#8221; was also an antiseptically sparse and clean industrial warehouse/showroom type environment that was, if anything, too well lit.  And no more Georgian/Gothic hybrid Wayne mansion &#8212; we get an airy, transparent penthouse entirely surrounded by glass and sparsely furnished.</p>
<p>Underneath this glossy and spartan surface lurks the darkness of Gotham&#8217;s moral decay and it is truly a place where crime and corruption hold sway.  Like many doomed empires in need of saving, Gotham is corrupt at its core.  This is where the comic book motif comes back in &#8212; because it is a comic book, we don&#8217;t have to watch real life play out on the screen; instead, we get fiction and something to think about in that pretty little package of our armed ninja <i>deus ex machina</i>.  </p>
<p>Of course there is the superficial irony that Gotham&#8217;s &#8220;Dark Knight&#8221; is its savior &#8212; and one of the few incorruptible good guys (along with Rachel, Gordon and Fox), and its &#8220;White Knight&#8221; is corruptible through the promise of position if only he can get things to go his way.  The desire for reputation and position outweigh moral sense, even though the ultimate goals the White Knight desires are worthy (the elimination of the criminal core of Gotham).  There is a constant &#8220;feeling&#8221; in the movie that Dent would be willing to cut corners to get the bad guys; unlike Batman, though, Dent has to do so while maintaining appearances. Ultimately, Dent&#8217;s true character as two-face is revealed when a tragedy in his own life topples him and he joins the ranks of Gotham&#8217;s villains, blindly seeking revenge.</p>
<p>Batman, by contrast, does not break like Dent does.  Batman is flexible and can accommodate difficult truths, such as the arbitrary influence of chance in people&#8217;s lives.  Dent looks to chance as he flips his coin but breaks when it doesn&#8217;t go his way.</p>
<p>In giving Gotham its White Knight, Batman gives it hope.  In fact, what I primarily took from the movie was a sense of hope &#8212; I thought the medium really worked to get that across.  It is a glum hope, a melancholy hope, but in this feeling the movie sheds its comic book nature in favor of a dose of realism after all.  In real life, there usually isn&#8217;t a <i>deus ex machina</i> (although some have been fortunate enough to benefit from one), just a constant, melancholy hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/06/the-ethics-of-batman-the-dark-knight/#comment-141778</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 06:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8643#comment-141778</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The world deserves to know the truth. The world must know that even Harvey Dent was tempted and fell. He was as human as we all are. Yet the movie shows us that even the criminal can change and become the true white knight. My opinion is that it is a disservice to humanity to withhold the truth. The frailty of the human experience should not be bolstered by half truths. Umm, dude I sound weird, yet I feel this way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The world deserves to know the truth. The world must know that even Harvey Dent was tempted and fell. He was as human as we all are. Yet the movie shows us that even the criminal can change and become the true white knight. My opinion is that it is a disservice to humanity to withhold the truth. The frailty of the human experience should not be bolstered by half truths. Umm, dude I sound weird, yet I feel this way.</p>
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		<title>By: TonyD</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/06/the-ethics-of-batman-the-dark-knight/#comment-141563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TonyD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8643#comment-141563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I prefer the Harry Potter film/book - The Sorcerer&#039;s Stone. Harry was only able to get the stone because he didn&#039;t want it. That is, he had become someone capable of handling its power.

I think movies such as TDK offer less insight because they illustrate the use of &quot;power&quot; without the deep personal transformation that must accompany it. There is only superficial emotionality, &quot;good&quot;, and &quot;evil&quot;.  Has Batman cultivated the required judgment, selflessness, compassion, humility, emotional control, respect for others&#039; values, and respect for community values? 

To me, Batman offers lessons that must be unlearned.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I prefer the Harry Potter film/book &#8211; The Sorcerer&#8217;s Stone. Harry was only able to get the stone because he didn&#8217;t want it. That is, he had become someone capable of handling its power.</p>
<p>I think movies such as TDK offer less insight because they illustrate the use of &#8220;power&#8221; without the deep personal transformation that must accompany it. There is only superficial emotionality, &#8220;good&#8221;, and &#8220;evil&#8221;.  Has Batman cultivated the required judgment, selflessness, compassion, humility, emotional control, respect for others&#8217; values, and respect for community values? </p>
<p>To me, Batman offers lessons that must be unlearned.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/06/the-ethics-of-batman-the-dark-knight/#comment-141541</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jacob J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8643#comment-141541</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ronan, I think you&#039;ve nailed why the movie was good.  Excellent review.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ronan, I think you&#8217;ve nailed why the movie was good.  Excellent review.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/06/the-ethics-of-batman-the-dark-knight/#comment-141517</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8643#comment-141517</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[hey man you brought it up, not me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey man you brought it up, not me.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/06/the-ethics-of-batman-the-dark-knight/#comment-141514</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8643#comment-141514</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dan,
I&#039;m not the least bit interested in engaging you in a discussion that involves anything to do with GWB, torture, Republicans, government, or politics of any kind.  So I&#039;ll just make this one response and let you have the last word if you wish.

&lt;em&gt;That some view the President of the United States the same as a non-law abiding vigilante . . .&lt;/em&gt;

I don&#039;t know if you&#039;re imputing this view to me or to the filmmakers, but either way you&#039;re wrong to do so.  Batman is a stand-in for GWB in that he faces similar ethical questions in the face of terrorism and makes similar decisions.  Drawing that parallel doesn&#039;t mean that I (or the filmmakers) believe that the POTUS is justified in acting outside of the law.

As I said, I think the film is ambivalent about Batman&#039;s decisions, and even about Batman&#039;s existence and crusade.  I don&#039;t think it celebrates or unambiguously condones Batman&#039;s actions.  At best, Batman is a necessary evil.  But it is also sympathetic to the plight of those who must fight terrorists.  It&#039;s a difficult problem with a lot of ethical gray area.  A lot of us moral cretins feel that way.  We can&#039;t all have the moral certitude and righteousness of Dan the Good Democrat.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan,<br />
I&#8217;m not the least bit interested in engaging you in a discussion that involves anything to do with GWB, torture, Republicans, government, or politics of any kind.  So I&#8217;ll just make this one response and let you have the last word if you wish.</p>
<p><em>That some view the President of the United States the same as a non-law abiding vigilante . . .</em></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;re imputing this view to me or to the filmmakers, but either way you&#8217;re wrong to do so.  Batman is a stand-in for GWB in that he faces similar ethical questions in the face of terrorism and makes similar decisions.  Drawing that parallel doesn&#8217;t mean that I (or the filmmakers) believe that the POTUS is justified in acting outside of the law.</p>
<p>As I said, I think the film is ambivalent about Batman&#8217;s decisions, and even about Batman&#8217;s existence and crusade.  I don&#8217;t think it celebrates or unambiguously condones Batman&#8217;s actions.  At best, Batman is a necessary evil.  But it is also sympathetic to the plight of those who must fight terrorists.  It&#8217;s a difficult problem with a lot of ethical gray area.  A lot of us moral cretins feel that way.  We can&#8217;t all have the moral certitude and righteousness of Dan the Good Democrat.</p>
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		<title>By: Eris</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/06/the-ethics-of-batman-the-dark-knight/#comment-141505</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8643#comment-141505</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok, I have to watch it again. I fall somewhere between those who left the theater deeply disturbed and those who completely &quot;got it&quot; I guess. You could say I was disturbed because there was so much to think about and I was never convinced I had a moral actor anywhere in the narrative. At one point or another, each of them said/did something that made me sick and that something that made me nod in agreement. 

Now I have to go back and try again. With this post as my Cliff Notes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I have to watch it again. I fall somewhere between those who left the theater deeply disturbed and those who completely &#8220;got it&#8221; I guess. You could say I was disturbed because there was so much to think about and I was never convinced I had a moral actor anywhere in the narrative. At one point or another, each of them said/did something that made me sick and that something that made me nod in agreement. </p>
<p>Now I have to go back and try again. With this post as my Cliff Notes.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/06/the-ethics-of-batman-the-dark-knight/#comment-141503</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8643#comment-141503</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jack,

&lt;blockquote&gt;violent dark film&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That speaks to many of this generation who cannot view the world except through this lens.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack,</p>
<blockquote><p>violent dark film</p></blockquote>
<p>That speaks to many of this generation who cannot view the world except through this lens.</p>
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		<title>By: John C.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/06/the-ethics-of-batman-the-dark-knight/#comment-141501</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John C.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 10:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8643#comment-141501</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Batman was no longer Batman when they reduced him to an armored ninja. Ridiculous.&quot;

When was Batman ever not an armored ninja?  Are you pining for Adam West?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Batman was no longer Batman when they reduced him to an armored ninja. Ridiculous.&#8221;</p>
<p>When was Batman ever not an armored ninja?  Are you pining for Adam West?</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/06/the-ethics-of-batman-the-dark-knight/#comment-141497</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 04:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=8643#comment-141497</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[TDK -- Way overrated. It&#039;s a huge messy pretentious violent dark film with a thousand-million twists and turns -- with no room at all for real intrigue. Any meaningful &quot;philosophy&quot; to be found in the movie is incidental to 1) a machine-grinding plot desperately trying to force a story to happen and 2) whatever vestiges of the original comic books that are still present.

And as a side note: Batman was no longer Batman when they reduced him to an armored ninja. Ridiculous.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TDK &#8212; Way overrated. It&#8217;s a huge messy pretentious violent dark film with a thousand-million twists and turns &#8212; with no room at all for real intrigue. Any meaningful &#8220;philosophy&#8221; to be found in the movie is incidental to 1) a machine-grinding plot desperately trying to force a story to happen and 2) whatever vestiges of the original comic books that are still present.</p>
<p>And as a side note: Batman was no longer Batman when they reduced him to an armored ninja. Ridiculous.</p>
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