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	<title>Comments on: Succession: D&amp;C Lesson 33</title>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/26/succession-dc-lesson-33/#comment-157906</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=11233#comment-157906</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt W., I have read the thesis -- someone lent me a clandestine copy at one point several years back.  The low visibility of the thesis, and the fact that I don&#039;t own a copy, make it hard to talk specifics at this late date.  My feeling, though, is that Ehat&#039;s argument has two thrusts.  One is a pragmatic argument about why Brigham&#039;s succession was retroactively reasonable, and his leadership successful -- and I think the connection of the Twelve to the temple ordinances is certainly part of the story here, although it perhaps undersells the importance of polygamy as the basic network of relationships and power that supported both the temple ordinances and the Twelve&#039;s increased importance in Nauvoo.  

The second line of argumentation in Ehat&#039;s work is a set of claims about why the majority of Nauvoo Saints sustained Brigham as the church leader.  Ehat argues that the Twelve&#039;s connection with temple work was key to mass acceptance at the time, but I&#039;d guess that&#039;s an overstatement.  I&#039;m not sure that the Nauvoo masses in general knew about the connections, and in any case they had other good reasons to support Young and the Twelve.  Those reasons were perhaps more ad hoc and sometimes even political: while there were spiritual experiences, there was also the fact that Young was in many very visible ways a more capable and stable leader than, for example, Sidney Rigdon.  These sorts of criteria seem to me to probably be the best explanation for the acceptance of the Twelve at the time; more complex, legalistic arguments about custodianship of ordinances and priesthood keys seem less viscerally persuasive and far more difficult to work out for the average Nauvoo Saint who knew relatively little about everything that was going on.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt W., I have read the thesis &#8212; someone lent me a clandestine copy at one point several years back.  The low visibility of the thesis, and the fact that I don&#8217;t own a copy, make it hard to talk specifics at this late date.  My feeling, though, is that Ehat&#8217;s argument has two thrusts.  One is a pragmatic argument about why Brigham&#8217;s succession was retroactively reasonable, and his leadership successful &#8212; and I think the connection of the Twelve to the temple ordinances is certainly part of the story here, although it perhaps undersells the importance of polygamy as the basic network of relationships and power that supported both the temple ordinances and the Twelve&#8217;s increased importance in Nauvoo.  </p>
<p>The second line of argumentation in Ehat&#8217;s work is a set of claims about why the majority of Nauvoo Saints sustained Brigham as the church leader.  Ehat argues that the Twelve&#8217;s connection with temple work was key to mass acceptance at the time, but I&#8217;d guess that&#8217;s an overstatement.  I&#8217;m not sure that the Nauvoo masses in general knew about the connections, and in any case they had other good reasons to support Young and the Twelve.  Those reasons were perhaps more ad hoc and sometimes even political: while there were spiritual experiences, there was also the fact that Young was in many very visible ways a more capable and stable leader than, for example, Sidney Rigdon.  These sorts of criteria seem to me to probably be the best explanation for the acceptance of the Twelve at the time; more complex, legalistic arguments about custodianship of ordinances and priesthood keys seem less viscerally persuasive and far more difficult to work out for the average Nauvoo Saint who knew relatively little about everything that was going on.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/26/succession-dc-lesson-33/#comment-157897</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt W.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=11233#comment-157897</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JNS- Sorry haven&#039;t read comments yet, but am in this lesson now. Anyway, Ehat&#039;s thesis was about why Brigham would be ideal via hindsight. Ie- he was in all the annointed quorums. I was wondering if you&#039;d read it and what your thoughts were. (It is also interesting, because when Ehat wrote it, the Hoffman forgeries were considered true.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JNS- Sorry haven&#8217;t read comments yet, but am in this lesson now. Anyway, Ehat&#8217;s thesis was about why Brigham would be ideal via hindsight. Ie- he was in all the annointed quorums. I was wondering if you&#8217;d read it and what your thoughts were. (It is also interesting, because when Ehat wrote it, the Hoffman forgeries were considered true.)</p>
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		<title>By: JWL</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/26/succession-dc-lesson-33/#comment-156826</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JWL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=11233#comment-156826</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry to pop in so late.  Everyone has probably already had the lesson today (I was a substitute).  However, a couple of points:

1)  A complete collection of accounts of the &quot;mantle&quot; of Joseph passing to Brigham is at: 

Lynne Watkins Jorgensen and BYU Studies staff, “The Mantle of the Prophet Joseph Passes to Brother Brigham: A Collective Spiritual Witness,” BYU Studies 36/4:131
 
 http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/byustudies&amp;CISOPTR=2445&amp;REC=13  guest 

2)  I look at it organically rather than legalistically.  I heard Richard Bushman once describe D&amp;C 107 as creating a great luxuriant bush of organizations.  Every gardener knows that you usually have to prune a bush to get it to grow in an orderly way.  Over the following years the parallel and overlapping wealth of quorums created by D&amp;C 107 was pruned by experience and revelation.  Previous comments and research like the excellent Quinn article describe how Joseph step by step moved the Twelve into a preeminent position as the majority of that group proved themselves through events such as the removal from Missouri and the mission to England.   These actions by Joseph (culminating with the &quot;last charge&quot; in early 1844 referred to above) have to be treated as essential revealed refinements on the D&amp;C 107 structure to make a complete &quot;legalistic&quot; argument for the primacy of the Twelve.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to pop in so late.  Everyone has probably already had the lesson today (I was a substitute).  However, a couple of points:</p>
<p>1)  A complete collection of accounts of the &#8220;mantle&#8221; of Joseph passing to Brigham is at: </p>
<p>Lynne Watkins Jorgensen and BYU Studies staff, “The Mantle of the Prophet Joseph Passes to Brother Brigham: A Collective Spiritual Witness,” BYU Studies 36/4:131</p>
<p> <a href="http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/byustudies&#038;CISOPTR=2445&#038;REC=13" rel="nofollow">http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/byustudies&#038;CISOPTR=2445&#038;REC=13</a>  guest </p>
<p>2)  I look at it organically rather than legalistically.  I heard Richard Bushman once describe D&amp;C 107 as creating a great luxuriant bush of organizations.  Every gardener knows that you usually have to prune a bush to get it to grow in an orderly way.  Over the following years the parallel and overlapping wealth of quorums created by D&amp;C 107 was pruned by experience and revelation.  Previous comments and research like the excellent Quinn article describe how Joseph step by step moved the Twelve into a preeminent position as the majority of that group proved themselves through events such as the removal from Missouri and the mission to England.   These actions by Joseph (culminating with the &#8220;last charge&#8221; in early 1844 referred to above) have to be treated as essential revealed refinements on the D&amp;C 107 structure to make a complete &#8220;legalistic&#8221; argument for the primacy of the Twelve.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve G.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/26/succession-dc-lesson-33/#comment-156738</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve G.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 03:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=11233#comment-156738</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Every time a President of the church dies, church members crow about politics never play a role in the choosing of the next leader like happens in other churches.  That may be true now, but its obvious it didn&#039;t start out that way.  This has been a very interesting conversation and I have learned a lot.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every time a President of the church dies, church members crow about politics never play a role in the choosing of the next leader like happens in other churches.  That may be true now, but its obvious it didn&#8217;t start out that way.  This has been a very interesting conversation and I have learned a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: TonyD</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/26/succession-dc-lesson-33/#comment-156732</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TonyD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 01:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=11233#comment-156732</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the requirement for &quot;proof&quot; and &quot;logic&quot;  is overrated. 

Why? Because, in this existence, we are dealing with both the material and the immaterial.  (Where the immaterial would include things like values and judgment. )

So &quot;proof&quot; has its limits.  How would an appearance by God prove that his definition of &quot;love your neighbor&quot; is correct? How would the application of &quot;consequences&quot; and &quot;responsibility&quot; mean that He has the correct balance of trade-offs to share with you?

We have to trust that He is using the material world to move people in a good direction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the requirement for &#8220;proof&#8221; and &#8220;logic&#8221;  is overrated. </p>
<p>Why? Because, in this existence, we are dealing with both the material and the immaterial.  (Where the immaterial would include things like values and judgment. )</p>
<p>So &#8220;proof&#8221; has its limits.  How would an appearance by God prove that his definition of &#8220;love your neighbor&#8221; is correct? How would the application of &#8220;consequences&#8221; and &#8220;responsibility&#8221; mean that He has the correct balance of trade-offs to share with you?</p>
<p>We have to trust that He is using the material world to move people in a good direction.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/26/succession-dc-lesson-33/#comment-156725</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 22:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=11233#comment-156725</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#108: More Machiavellian would be to pick as your replacement, a guy who everyone feared or hated.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#108: More Machiavellian would be to pick as your replacement, a guy who everyone feared or hated.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: BobW</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/26/succession-dc-lesson-33/#comment-156723</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BobW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=11233#comment-156723</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A more Machiavellian view of the Church disorganization: Keep them confused and the one at the top will maintain power.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A more Machiavellian view of the Church disorganization: Keep them confused and the one at the top will maintain power.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/26/succession-dc-lesson-33/#comment-156712</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=11233#comment-156712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seriously, why is not what was done, and is still being done, the standard ? While good minds can differ on what should been done.  Hasn&#039;t the correct way (or the answer) of succession been established by estoppel?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seriously, why is not what was done, and is still being done, the standard ? While good minds can differ on what should been done.  Hasn&#8217;t the correct way (or the answer) of succession been established by estoppel?</p>
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		<title>By: BobW</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/26/succession-dc-lesson-33/#comment-156706</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BobW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=11233#comment-156706</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joseph was no MBA graduate. I read the whole priesthood and governance sections as a mashup of overlapping authority. This is why Brigham Young eviscerated the Aaronic Priesthood as soon as he took over because it was so redundant (among other reasons). (As an aside, we have all of the leftovers of the original Aaronic Priesthood in the Temple ceremony, now and forever more a priesthood of boys, mainly.)

Likewise the Seventies. I really loved the old idea of Seventies not being High Priests, a result that gave us the likes of B. H. Roberts and J. Golden Kimball, two of the most revered and best, because they were not management material. They were, however, basically not usable, managerially, because they were not Church management material. That proved absolutely intractable in terms of Church governance. It is a body equal to the other two but made up of people with no management experience. Who would have even considered that? As the church grew larger and more help was needed, the question remained, what to do.

They tried the non-scriptural assistants to the quorum of the 12, but that was too non-scriptural. The seventies were scriptural but prohibited from being management material. So they changed that part of the scriptures, by revelation, to allow the enlargement of the Seventies with former High Priests. 

So, defacto, the 12 have the power because the senior apostle always is and becomes the president of the Church, so he always has control. The Seventy are always subject to the Twelve because they can be fired by the Twelve but not the other way around. 

As I see it, much of the reorganization of the priesthood has been in response to Joseph&#039;s inexperience as a manager. He had no opportunity to train except on the job. This is why, mainly, we have the modern assertion that the present prophet takes precedence over all other prophets, particularly Joseph Smith, particularly when it comes to organizational revelation. (Unfortunately this has been extended to doctrinal issues as well, I think, which is a real mistake. Organization, well OK, but leave eternal progression in place, Gordon B. Hinckley)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph was no MBA graduate. I read the whole priesthood and governance sections as a mashup of overlapping authority. This is why Brigham Young eviscerated the Aaronic Priesthood as soon as he took over because it was so redundant (among other reasons). (As an aside, we have all of the leftovers of the original Aaronic Priesthood in the Temple ceremony, now and forever more a priesthood of boys, mainly.)</p>
<p>Likewise the Seventies. I really loved the old idea of Seventies not being High Priests, a result that gave us the likes of B. H. Roberts and J. Golden Kimball, two of the most revered and best, because they were not management material. They were, however, basically not usable, managerially, because they were not Church management material. That proved absolutely intractable in terms of Church governance. It is a body equal to the other two but made up of people with no management experience. Who would have even considered that? As the church grew larger and more help was needed, the question remained, what to do.</p>
<p>They tried the non-scriptural assistants to the quorum of the 12, but that was too non-scriptural. The seventies were scriptural but prohibited from being management material. So they changed that part of the scriptures, by revelation, to allow the enlargement of the Seventies with former High Priests. </p>
<p>So, defacto, the 12 have the power because the senior apostle always is and becomes the president of the Church, so he always has control. The Seventy are always subject to the Twelve because they can be fired by the Twelve but not the other way around. </p>
<p>As I see it, much of the reorganization of the priesthood has been in response to Joseph&#8217;s inexperience as a manager. He had no opportunity to train except on the job. This is why, mainly, we have the modern assertion that the present prophet takes precedence over all other prophets, particularly Joseph Smith, particularly when it comes to organizational revelation. (Unfortunately this has been extended to doctrinal issues as well, I think, which is a real mistake. Organization, well OK, but leave eternal progression in place, Gordon B. Hinckley)</p>
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		<title>By: John C.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/26/succession-dc-lesson-33/#comment-156697</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John C.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=11233#comment-156697</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[J made my point.  Based on an very simplified NT reading, Apostles were a better bet for church leadership than stake presidencies or high councils.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J made my point.  Based on an very simplified NT reading, Apostles were a better bet for church leadership than stake presidencies or high councils.</p>
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