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	<title>Comments on: Affirmation v. Evergreen</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/#comment-158852</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12000#comment-158852</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Too bad, Daniel - you can&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too bad, Daniel &#8211; you can&#8217;t.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/#comment-158851</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12000#comment-158851</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I disagree with #145]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with #145</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dan Weston</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/#comment-158848</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Weston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12000#comment-158848</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mormons are such agreeable people. They even agree to agree!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormons are such agreeable people. They even agree to agree!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dick Cheney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/#comment-158847</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Cheney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12000#comment-158847</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Daniel at #144.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Daniel at #144.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/#comment-158846</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12000#comment-158846</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with John C at #133.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with John C at #133.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jay Hinton</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/#comment-158845</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay Hinton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12000#comment-158845</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with nobody.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with nobody.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jensen</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/#comment-158843</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jensen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12000#comment-158843</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think there is one important fact that many are overlooking: Most LDS did not choose to be LDS, just as most gays did not choose to be gay. Most LDS were born into the Church. Our &quot;good feelings&quot; associated with the Church have origins so far back in our youth and so deeply embedded into our psyches, they seem to defy analysis and criticism. We just &quot;know&quot; the Church is true and we can&#039;t imagine ourselves outside of it!

The same is true of being gay (or heterosexual). The origins of sexual feelings and attraction - to those with characteristics common to the same sex, or the opposite sex - are buried deep in the past and deep within our psyches, and perhaps even in biology (ala Freud).

The origins of both religious faith and sexual orientation seem to be mystical, inscrutible, and only modifiable by earth-shaking effort or &quot;miracle&quot;.

So if you are LDS AND Gay, you are kind of stuck in an existential dilemma not of your own making.

But when it comes to religion, I think it is a huge mistake to assume that those who don&#039;t believe the same things we (I) believe (or, put another way, those who &quot;don&#039;t have as much faith as me&quot;) are somehow weaker, less worthy, slackers, who are not willing to try hard enough.

Likewise, it seems to be a bit arrogant to believe that those who &quot;fail&quot; to overcome their SSA are somehow weaker, less worthy, slackers who are not willing to try hard enough.

Years ago, I had a friend who was born in the Church. He tried to gain a testimony, but never felt he was able to achieve the &quot;knowing&quot; that everybody else seemed to profess. On the cassette tape he left when he committed suicide, he explained that the only way he was going to &quot;know beyond a shadow of a doubt&quot; was to go see God personally and directly.

The news media is filled with accounts of gay LDS who felt forced into the same desperate situation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is one important fact that many are overlooking: Most LDS did not choose to be LDS, just as most gays did not choose to be gay. Most LDS were born into the Church. Our &#8220;good feelings&#8221; associated with the Church have origins so far back in our youth and so deeply embedded into our psyches, they seem to defy analysis and criticism. We just &#8220;know&#8221; the Church is true and we can&#8217;t imagine ourselves outside of it!</p>
<p>The same is true of being gay (or heterosexual). The origins of sexual feelings and attraction &#8211; to those with characteristics common to the same sex, or the opposite sex &#8211; are buried deep in the past and deep within our psyches, and perhaps even in biology (ala Freud).</p>
<p>The origins of both religious faith and sexual orientation seem to be mystical, inscrutible, and only modifiable by earth-shaking effort or &#8220;miracle&#8221;.</p>
<p>So if you are LDS AND Gay, you are kind of stuck in an existential dilemma not of your own making.</p>
<p>But when it comes to religion, I think it is a huge mistake to assume that those who don&#8217;t believe the same things we (I) believe (or, put another way, those who &#8220;don&#8217;t have as much faith as me&#8221;) are somehow weaker, less worthy, slackers, who are not willing to try hard enough.</p>
<p>Likewise, it seems to be a bit arrogant to believe that those who &#8220;fail&#8221; to overcome their SSA are somehow weaker, less worthy, slackers who are not willing to try hard enough.</p>
<p>Years ago, I had a friend who was born in the Church. He tried to gain a testimony, but never felt he was able to achieve the &#8220;knowing&#8221; that everybody else seemed to profess. On the cassette tape he left when he committed suicide, he explained that the only way he was going to &#8220;know beyond a shadow of a doubt&#8221; was to go see God personally and directly.</p>
<p>The news media is filled with accounts of gay LDS who felt forced into the same desperate situation.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Latter-day Guy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/#comment-158842</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Latter-day Guy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12000#comment-158842</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[134, 136, 138, 139:

&quot;The circle of our love is more
Than just a rising sun that sets,
The circle of our love, it goes forever.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>134, 136, 138, 139:</p>
<p>&#8220;The circle of our love is more<br />
Than just a rising sun that sets,<br />
The circle of our love, it goes forever.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tracy M</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/#comment-158841</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tracy M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12000#comment-158841</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think I see what John C is saying, and while maybe he used over-broad strokes as a kind of hubris, he does have a point. Of course it can be refined, and of course there are much subtler points to be made- but I&#039;m hard pressed to take issue with the general observation.

I agree with John, Mark and Ardis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I see what John C is saying, and while maybe he used over-broad strokes as a kind of hubris, he does have a point. Of course it can be refined, and of course there are much subtler points to be made- but I&#8217;m hard pressed to take issue with the general observation.</p>
<p>I agree with John, Mark and Ardis.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: gst</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/09/20/affirmation-v-evergreen/#comment-158840</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gst]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12000#comment-158840</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[FMHLisa and CWC: Rawrr!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FMHLisa and CWC: Rawrr!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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