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	<title>Comments on: What does it mean to have a testimony of JS?</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/10/18/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-testimony-of-js/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Glenn Smith</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/10/18/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-testimony-of-js/#comment-163632</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Glenn Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12711#comment-163632</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This Mormon Times article has a very pertinent comment:

http://www.mormontimes.com/people_news/education/?id=11424
~~~~~~
While preparing for this devotional address, Rasmus said she struggled to decide what to prepare. She finally got down on her knees and prayed for guidance, understanding, wisdom and the enabling power of Christ to know why this was so difficult.

&quot;With force and power, these words came streaming into my mind, &#039;Because Satan does not want you to teach of the atonement of Jesus Christ,&#039;&quot; said Rasmus.
~~~~~~]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This Mormon Times article has a very pertinent comment:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mormontimes.com/people_news/education/?id=11424" rel="nofollow">http://www.mormontimes.com/people_news/education/?id=11424</a><br />
~~~~~~<br />
While preparing for this devotional address, Rasmus said she struggled to decide what to prepare. She finally got down on her knees and prayed for guidance, understanding, wisdom and the enabling power of Christ to know why this was so difficult.</p>
<p>&#8220;With force and power, these words came streaming into my mind, &#8216;Because Satan does not want you to teach of the atonement of Jesus Christ,&#8217;&#8221; said Rasmus.<br />
~~~~~~</p>
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		<title>By: T-NC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/10/18/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-testimony-of-js/#comment-163417</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[T-NC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 02:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12711#comment-163417</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Personally, I&#039;ve heard enough about the pioneers and could use a little less early church history in general.  I would also think that many non-Americans might agree at least a little.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I&#8217;ve heard enough about the pioneers and could use a little less early church history in general.  I would also think that many non-Americans might agree at least a little.</p>
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		<title>By: Paradox</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/10/18/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-testimony-of-js/#comment-163145</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paradox]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 18:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12711#comment-163145</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If to be blessed with a testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith, in those exact words, is good enough to be in a patriarchal blessing, then it&#039;s not only good enough for me, but obviously good enough for the Lord.

And really, His opinion is the only one that really matters.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If to be blessed with a testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith, in those exact words, is good enough to be in a patriarchal blessing, then it&#8217;s not only good enough for me, but obviously good enough for the Lord.</p>
<p>And really, His opinion is the only one that really matters.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Weston</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/10/18/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-testimony-of-js/#comment-162825</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Weston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12711#comment-162825</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is an interesting contrast with Catholic and Baptist approaches. The Roman Catholic Church now follows a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectionary#3_year_cycle&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;3-year cycle&lt;/a&gt;, one year for each of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew,Mark,Luke), focusing strongly on the human side of Jesus. John is given short shrift (too theological). The two readings serve only to introduce the Gospel reading (and end with the lesser response &quot;Thanks be to God&quot; -- which I often spoke aloud as &quot;Thanks to be God&quot; -- instead of &quot;Praise to you O Lord Jesus Christ&quot;), one an Old Testament reading and the other one of St. Paul&#039;s letters. Both are carefully picked through to avoid all possible intolerance parts (like Job or women not speaking in Church). The homily (sermon) is almost always Gospel-centered on humans (how we can be more like Jesus). The result: warm and caring water-into-wine Jesus action figure.

Low-church preachers (like Baptists) do it backwards. Instead of stepping through the book and seeing what it says, the preacher decides what point he wants to make, writes that on the sign out front, then scours the scriptures with a concordance looking for evidence to corroborate it. The Synoptic Gospels are not amenable to this casuistry and are rarely cited. Instead, St. Paul, Acts, and Revelations are mined for ammunition. The result: you&#039;re going to Hell, unless...

You would not know that these two churches purport to believe in the same Jesus. I agree with Antonio that how -- and how much -- emphasis is placed on one or the other aspect of one&#039;s beliefs strongly shapes the resulting faith. Catholics are do-gooders, and Baptists are scare-mongers. Mormons appear to me to be obedient-ones. It is no surprise to me that Catholics are infamously cafeteria: we have never been taught to obey or be afraid.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is an interesting contrast with Catholic and Baptist approaches. The Roman Catholic Church now follows a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectionary#3_year_cycle" rel="nofollow">3-year cycle</a>, one year for each of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew,Mark,Luke), focusing strongly on the human side of Jesus. John is given short shrift (too theological). The two readings serve only to introduce the Gospel reading (and end with the lesser response &#8220;Thanks be to God&#8221; &#8212; which I often spoke aloud as &#8220;Thanks to be God&#8221; &#8212; instead of &#8220;Praise to you O Lord Jesus Christ&#8221;), one an Old Testament reading and the other one of St. Paul&#8217;s letters. Both are carefully picked through to avoid all possible intolerance parts (like Job or women not speaking in Church). The homily (sermon) is almost always Gospel-centered on humans (how we can be more like Jesus). The result: warm and caring water-into-wine Jesus action figure.</p>
<p>Low-church preachers (like Baptists) do it backwards. Instead of stepping through the book and seeing what it says, the preacher decides what point he wants to make, writes that on the sign out front, then scours the scriptures with a concordance looking for evidence to corroborate it. The Synoptic Gospels are not amenable to this casuistry and are rarely cited. Instead, St. Paul, Acts, and Revelations are mined for ammunition. The result: you&#8217;re going to Hell, unless&#8230;</p>
<p>You would not know that these two churches purport to believe in the same Jesus. I agree with Antonio that how &#8212; and how much &#8212; emphasis is placed on one or the other aspect of one&#8217;s beliefs strongly shapes the resulting faith. Catholics are do-gooders, and Baptists are scare-mongers. Mormons appear to me to be obedient-ones. It is no surprise to me that Catholics are infamously cafeteria: we have never been taught to obey or be afraid.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Smith</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/10/18/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-testimony-of-js/#comment-162823</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Glenn Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12711#comment-162823</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This has been a wild and woolly discussion. I wager Natalie B. didn&#039;t suspect the direction the posts would go when she made the original post .  I&#039;m glad this discussion took place. In my new calling as Sunday School teacher for our combined youth class (12-18; small ward) , I now will focus at least part of the lesson on Jesus of Nazareth.  (I&#039;m known for expanding the topic when assigned talks, etc. )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This has been a wild and woolly discussion. I wager Natalie B. didn&#8217;t suspect the direction the posts would go when she made the original post .  I&#8217;m glad this discussion took place. In my new calling as Sunday School teacher for our combined youth class (12-18; small ward) , I now will focus at least part of the lesson on Jesus of Nazareth.  (I&#8217;m known for expanding the topic when assigned talks, etc. )</p>
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		<title>By: Antonio Parr</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/10/18/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-testimony-of-js/#comment-162809</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antonio Parr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12711#comment-162809</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK - so I don&#039;t always keep my word when it comes to &quot;final&quot; posts (although I always mean well when I say &quot;this is it&quot;) . . . 

Ray:

I have no reason  to doubt your assessment of the Savior/prophet ratio during the most recent General Conference.  However, I am sure you recognize that 2 days in a given October (how ever wonderful they might have otherwise been) are not necessarily representative of the day-to-day/week-to-week/month-to-month experience of Saints everywhere.   (In addition, you will note from the quote above from Elder Oaks in Comment No. 62 that even General Conference can be &quot;deficient&quot; in its reference of Christ and the atonement.)

Second, talks about the &quot;Godhead&quot; are not necessarily the same as talks about Jesus of Nazareth (although theologically we know that Jesus taught that He and His Father were one).  I dont think that the topic on this thread has been that we don&#039;t talk about &quot;God&quot; -- it was more concern about the attention (or, in my humble opinion, lack thereof) that we give to the life of Jesus as opposed to the time that we spend talking about the life of Joseph Smith.

I have pointed to you to a longer test period, i.e., 2008-2009, where virtually all Priesthood/Relief Society meetings have been about the life of Joseph Smith, usually preceded in 2009 by a lesson about Joseph Smith during Sunday School.  Contrast this with our study of the life of Jesus of Nazareth, which is limited to an approximately 5 month period once every 4 years when studying the New Testament.  Thus, in terms of our formal curriculum, there can be no doubt that we spend substantially greater time talking about the mortal life of Joseph versus the mortal life of Jesus.  

Of course, this does not mean that Latter-Day Saints worship Joseph Smith.   Our prayers are to the Father, in the name of His Son.  We covenant each Sunday to &quot;remember Him always&quot;.  And, of course, the temple is very much focused on our Lord.

Still, when it comes to the &quot;meat and potatoes&quot;, i.e., how we spend our formal Sabbath experience, there is (for me, at least) not enough discussion about what Jesus said and did when he walked the earth.   In order for him to be our Examplar, it seems that we need to focus consistently on the wealth of information found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and 3rd Nephi about the example He set during his bodily ministry, which is extraordinarily relevant to us as we go about our bodily ministries.  

(To address Ardis&#039; concern, this does not mean that we don&#039;t study the Restoration and the parts played by Joseph and others in establishing this beautiful, beautiful Church.  These miraculous events have much to teach us.  But, as taught by Elder Howard W. Hunter during his last talk prior to becoming President of the Church, only Christ can say &quot;come, follow me&quot; -- &quot;do as I do&quot;.   For this reason, we should spend time considering exactly what it was that Jesus said and did, in order that we can fully understand His example.) 

If we can set aside 2 years to talk about Joseph Smith&#039;s life and teachings in Priesthood and Relief Society, surely there must be a way to set aside at least a comparable amount of time to study -- and I mean ~really~ study -- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

There is power in Jesus&#039; life and atonement, and I, for one, benefit greatly when my worship experience with my beloved Latter-Day Saints includes time spent remembering and talking about His matchless life and ministry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK &#8211; so I don&#8217;t always keep my word when it comes to &#8220;final&#8221; posts (although I always mean well when I say &#8220;this is it&#8221;) . . . </p>
<p>Ray:</p>
<p>I have no reason  to doubt your assessment of the Savior/prophet ratio during the most recent General Conference.  However, I am sure you recognize that 2 days in a given October (how ever wonderful they might have otherwise been) are not necessarily representative of the day-to-day/week-to-week/month-to-month experience of Saints everywhere.   (In addition, you will note from the quote above from Elder Oaks in Comment No. 62 that even General Conference can be &#8220;deficient&#8221; in its reference of Christ and the atonement.)</p>
<p>Second, talks about the &#8220;Godhead&#8221; are not necessarily the same as talks about Jesus of Nazareth (although theologically we know that Jesus taught that He and His Father were one).  I dont think that the topic on this thread has been that we don&#8217;t talk about &#8220;God&#8221; &#8212; it was more concern about the attention (or, in my humble opinion, lack thereof) that we give to the life of Jesus as opposed to the time that we spend talking about the life of Joseph Smith.</p>
<p>I have pointed to you to a longer test period, i.e., 2008-2009, where virtually all Priesthood/Relief Society meetings have been about the life of Joseph Smith, usually preceded in 2009 by a lesson about Joseph Smith during Sunday School.  Contrast this with our study of the life of Jesus of Nazareth, which is limited to an approximately 5 month period once every 4 years when studying the New Testament.  Thus, in terms of our formal curriculum, there can be no doubt that we spend substantially greater time talking about the mortal life of Joseph versus the mortal life of Jesus.  </p>
<p>Of course, this does not mean that Latter-Day Saints worship Joseph Smith.   Our prayers are to the Father, in the name of His Son.  We covenant each Sunday to &#8220;remember Him always&#8221;.  And, of course, the temple is very much focused on our Lord.</p>
<p>Still, when it comes to the &#8220;meat and potatoes&#8221;, i.e., how we spend our formal Sabbath experience, there is (for me, at least) not enough discussion about what Jesus said and did when he walked the earth.   In order for him to be our Examplar, it seems that we need to focus consistently on the wealth of information found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and 3rd Nephi about the example He set during his bodily ministry, which is extraordinarily relevant to us as we go about our bodily ministries.  </p>
<p>(To address Ardis&#8217; concern, this does not mean that we don&#8217;t study the Restoration and the parts played by Joseph and others in establishing this beautiful, beautiful Church.  These miraculous events have much to teach us.  But, as taught by Elder Howard W. Hunter during his last talk prior to becoming President of the Church, only Christ can say &#8220;come, follow me&#8221; &#8212; &#8220;do as I do&#8221;.   For this reason, we should spend time considering exactly what it was that Jesus said and did, in order that we can fully understand His example.) </p>
<p>If we can set aside 2 years to talk about Joseph Smith&#8217;s life and teachings in Priesthood and Relief Society, surely there must be a way to set aside at least a comparable amount of time to study &#8212; and I mean ~really~ study &#8212; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?</p>
<p>There is power in Jesus&#8217; life and atonement, and I, for one, benefit greatly when my worship experience with my beloved Latter-Day Saints includes time spent remembering and talking about His matchless life and ministry.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott B.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/10/18/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-testimony-of-js/#comment-162793</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 03:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12711#comment-162793</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is a better reason for GC talks not explicitly focusing on Easter (although at least one always does, as you note)--GC is supposed to provide us with counsel and guidance for the next six months, not be a holiday fireside. 

How yawn-inducing would 4th Sundays be if every single TFOT lesson was about Easter?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a better reason for GC talks not explicitly focusing on Easter (although at least one always does, as you note)&#8211;GC is supposed to provide us with counsel and guidance for the next six months, not be a holiday fireside. </p>
<p>How yawn-inducing would 4th Sundays be if every single TFOT lesson was about Easter?</p>
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		<title>By: Left Field</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/10/18/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-testimony-of-js/#comment-162790</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Left Field]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 03:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12711#comment-162790</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That reminds me of a year or two ago when someone claimed that general conference is almost always scheduled on Easter, and that when it is, Easter is *never* even mentioned.  

I took the trouble to do a little checking.  It turns out that general conference falls on Easter an average of about 2-3 times per decade, and that going back at least 50 years, there has never been a conference on Easter without one or more talks focusing on Easter and the resurrection.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That reminds me of a year or two ago when someone claimed that general conference is almost always scheduled on Easter, and that when it is, Easter is *never* even mentioned.  </p>
<p>I took the trouble to do a little checking.  It turns out that general conference falls on Easter an average of about 2-3 times per decade, and that going back at least 50 years, there has never been a conference on Easter without one or more talks focusing on Easter and the resurrection.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Thomas Parkin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/10/18/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-testimony-of-js/#comment-162789</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas Parkin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 02:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12711#comment-162789</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And it&#039;s RAY for the win!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And it&#8217;s RAY for the win!!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Scott B.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/10/18/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-testimony-of-js/#comment-162788</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 02:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=12711#comment-162788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ray, 
Shame on you for bringing facts and actual data into a debate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray,<br />
Shame on you for bringing facts and actual data into a debate.</p>
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