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	<title>Comments on: Some Youthful Apologetics</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: BHodges</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/#comment-164029</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BHodges]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=13034#comment-164029</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Agreed, Hunter. Thanks John.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, Hunter. Thanks John.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/#comment-164023</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hunter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=13034#comment-164023</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John Hamer, I just wanted to say that, in addition to the opening post, I&#039;ve enjoyed the thoughtful and informative follow-up comments you&#039;ve provided.  It&#039;s been great to learn a little more about this part of the Latter Day Saint movement.  Great stuff.  Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Hamer, I just wanted to say that, in addition to the opening post, I&#8217;ve enjoyed the thoughtful and informative follow-up comments you&#8217;ve provided.  It&#8217;s been great to learn a little more about this part of the Latter Day Saint movement.  Great stuff.  Thanks.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Scott B.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/#comment-164022</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=13034#comment-164022</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John, 
The part of my comment you quote regarding the 15 men has virtually nothing to do with your OP; rather, I was responding to Kristine&#039;s statement about her SP and Bishop having a trump card on scriptural exegesis.  Sorry for the confusion.

Your (14.) largely resolved my issues with the post--most everything after that was just responding to other comments, not the post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,<br />
The part of my comment you quote regarding the 15 men has virtually nothing to do with your OP; rather, I was responding to Kristine&#8217;s statement about her SP and Bishop having a trump card on scriptural exegesis.  Sorry for the confusion.</p>
<p>Your (14.) largely resolved my issues with the post&#8211;most everything after that was just responding to other comments, not the post.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/#comment-164020</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=13034#comment-164020</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[high-fives all around then.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>high-fives all around then.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Hamer</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/#comment-164019</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Hamer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=13034#comment-164019</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve Evans (38): No argument; I think that&#039;s what I&#039;m trying to say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve Evans (38): No argument; I think that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m trying to say.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/#comment-164018</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=13034#comment-164018</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John, I think the traditional LDS view is that the authority of the LDS prophets have primacy over the scriptures, if only in part because the scriptures afford this power to the prophets.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I think the traditional LDS view is that the authority of the LDS prophets have primacy over the scriptures, if only in part because the scriptures afford this power to the prophets.</p>
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		<title>By: John Hamer</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/#comment-164017</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Hamer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=13034#comment-164017</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scott B:  I think everything Mike and I have said here is internally consistent.  Moreover, I find our comparison wholly consistent with your own avowed belief, stated in response #24:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I believe that there are only 15 people who are able interpret the scriptures and declare doctrine in any kind of meaningful or binding way in our Church.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

From the perspective of the individual member, your statement indicates to me that the authority of the leaders in the LDS Church takes primacy over that of the scriptures, since the leaders enjoy the sole right to interpret and reinterpret scripture for the church.  That belief would be utterly alien to the Strangites, whose religion authorizes and even demands that individual members challenge the leadership’s interpretations of scripture.  Mike’s example illustrates how this idea plays out for individual members.  The teacher he mentioned went on to admonish the then-current Presiding High Priest of the Strangite Church for what she saw as failures of his leadership.  Her arguments may well have contributed to the course change that soon followed, and she remains in full standing in her priesthood and membership today.

Since I still haven’t been entirely sure about the distinction you’re trying to make, I’ll speculate that you may be suggesting that in either scenario, the churches as whole have to have some mechanism to decide among competing interpretations of scripture.  In the Strangites’ case, the mechanism is the General Conference, which has the capacity to pass resolutions for the church, to silence priesthood, and to remove or replace presiding officers, including the Presiding High Priest of the church.  

“Functionally,” therefore, you could argue that the Strangite General Conference provides the same filter separating the individual member from the authority of the scriptures, which the fifteen apostles provide in the LDS Church.  However, the fact that the individual Strangite member is a full, co-equal participant in the General Conference, while all but fifteen members of the LDS Church do not share in apostolic authority, detracts somewhat from that argument.  

I agree that comparing individual believers in a small organization to individual believers in a large one is complicated.  However, both philosophies and systems of church government are potentially scalable.  Fifteen men could rule an organization of 300; their connection to individual members would simply be more personal and direct.  Likewise, individual members in a large church could still publish their scriptural interpretations and arguments widely, and then pass resolutions in General Conference, which (like the Community of Christ) would likely need to be composed of representatives, elected by the various branches or Stakes of the church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott B:  I think everything Mike and I have said here is internally consistent.  Moreover, I find our comparison wholly consistent with your own avowed belief, stated in response #24:</p>
<blockquote><p>I believe that there are only 15 people who are able interpret the scriptures and declare doctrine in any kind of meaningful or binding way in our Church.</p></blockquote>
<p>From the perspective of the individual member, your statement indicates to me that the authority of the leaders in the LDS Church takes primacy over that of the scriptures, since the leaders enjoy the sole right to interpret and reinterpret scripture for the church.  That belief would be utterly alien to the Strangites, whose religion authorizes and even demands that individual members challenge the leadership’s interpretations of scripture.  Mike’s example illustrates how this idea plays out for individual members.  The teacher he mentioned went on to admonish the then-current Presiding High Priest of the Strangite Church for what she saw as failures of his leadership.  Her arguments may well have contributed to the course change that soon followed, and she remains in full standing in her priesthood and membership today.</p>
<p>Since I still haven’t been entirely sure about the distinction you’re trying to make, I’ll speculate that you may be suggesting that in either scenario, the churches as whole have to have some mechanism to decide among competing interpretations of scripture.  In the Strangites’ case, the mechanism is the General Conference, which has the capacity to pass resolutions for the church, to silence priesthood, and to remove or replace presiding officers, including the Presiding High Priest of the church.  </p>
<p>“Functionally,” therefore, you could argue that the Strangite General Conference provides the same filter separating the individual member from the authority of the scriptures, which the fifteen apostles provide in the LDS Church.  However, the fact that the individual Strangite member is a full, co-equal participant in the General Conference, while all but fifteen members of the LDS Church do not share in apostolic authority, detracts somewhat from that argument.  </p>
<p>I agree that comparing individual believers in a small organization to individual believers in a large one is complicated.  However, both philosophies and systems of church government are potentially scalable.  Fifteen men could rule an organization of 300; their connection to individual members would simply be more personal and direct.  Likewise, individual members in a large church could still publish their scriptural interpretations and arguments widely, and then pass resolutions in General Conference, which (like the Community of Christ) would likely need to be composed of representatives, elected by the various branches or Stakes of the church.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/#comment-164016</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=13034#comment-164016</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just to be a humorless twit about it, I&#039;ll note that I&#039;m NOT defending either mode of ecclesiastical problem-solving, only trying to insist that there&#039;s no reason to be offended by the distinction being drawn.  I think both modes are legitimate, and each has benefits and drawbacks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to be a humorless twit about it, I&#8217;ll note that I&#8217;m NOT defending either mode of ecclesiastical problem-solving, only trying to insist that there&#8217;s no reason to be offended by the distinction being drawn.  I think both modes are legitimate, and each has benefits and drawbacks.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/#comment-164014</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=13034#comment-164014</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cynthia with the functional snark!  (That makes 2 times the word functional has been used on this thread.  Oh, three!)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cynthia with the functional snark!  (That makes 2 times the word functional has been used on this thread.  Oh, three!)</p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia L.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/11/01/some-youthful-apologetics/#comment-164013</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cynthia L.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=13034#comment-164013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow, 3 BCC permas all rushing to defend proof-text scripture quote dropping as a functional debate culture.

Now I&#039;ve seen everything!! Quick, m&amp;m, get a screen capture of this thread! ;-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, 3 BCC permas all rushing to defend proof-text scripture quote dropping as a functional debate culture.</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;ve seen everything!! Quick, m&amp;m, get a screen capture of this thread! ;-)</p>
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