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	<title>Comments on: Everything that is wrong with LDS Gospel Teaching, Part 2: Bigger, Faster, Weaker</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Mark N.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/#comment-171668</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark N.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=14617#comment-171668</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What if it turns out that the fruit of the Tree of Life tastes like McNuggets?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if it turns out that the fruit of the Tree of Life tastes like McNuggets?</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/#comment-171388</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=14617#comment-171388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad260/aajoneses/churchdrug.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here is an image&lt;/a&gt; you could use in this post John.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad260/aajoneses/churchdrug.jpg" rel="nofollow">Here is an image</a> you could use in this post John.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim Siever</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/#comment-171316</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kim Siever]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 01:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=14617#comment-171316</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Finally, I feel no sympathy for called teachers who would argue that they don’t have time to prepare a class well.&quot;

If anything, Gospel Doctrine Instructor was the calling that took the least of my time. I simply replaced my scripture study time with lesson prep time since I relied heavily on the scriptures as my material.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Finally, I feel no sympathy for called teachers who would argue that they don’t have time to prepare a class well.&#8221;</p>
<p>If anything, Gospel Doctrine Instructor was the calling that took the least of my time. I simply replaced my scripture study time with lesson prep time since I relied heavily on the scriptures as my material.</p>
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		<title>By: britt</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/#comment-171232</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[britt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 19:12:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=14617#comment-171232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In some homeschooling circles, public school is referred to as a conveyor belt.  I sometimes see church education similarly when teachers don&#039;t read and act on those critical first few pages of the manual or magnify their calling.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In some homeschooling circles, public school is referred to as a conveyor belt.  I sometimes see church education similarly when teachers don&#8217;t read and act on those critical first few pages of the manual or magnify their calling.</p>
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		<title>By: alextvalencic</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/#comment-171217</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alextvalencic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 17:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=14617#comment-171217</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m getting ready to pop on over to part III, but I thought I would throw out that for all y&#039;all who have had terrible experiences with teachers discouraging critical thinking, you need to come out and visit us here in Champaign, Illinois. I have had SS teachers regularly challenge our assumptions, and one of the best PH lessons I attended was the recent (December) lesson on the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, in which the teacher challenged everyone to explain why it mattered.

So it can happen. Feel free to visit!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m getting ready to pop on over to part III, but I thought I would throw out that for all y&#8217;all who have had terrible experiences with teachers discouraging critical thinking, you need to come out and visit us here in Champaign, Illinois. I have had SS teachers regularly challenge our assumptions, and one of the best PH lessons I attended was the recent (December) lesson on the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, in which the teacher challenged everyone to explain why it mattered.</p>
<p>So it can happen. Feel free to visit!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bogolubov</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/#comment-171185</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bogolubov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 15:19:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=14617#comment-171185</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Antonio.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Antonio.</p>
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		<title>By: John C.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/#comment-171173</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John C.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 14:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=14617#comment-171173</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree that the distinction between critical thinking and gospel teaching is a false dichotomy.  And I agree with m&amp;m that there is a lot of good gospel teaching out there (I was encouraging people to share about it in the first post&#039;s thread, but there is no reason to not share it here, too).

I also agree that often the primary problem with Sunday School participation is personal preparation.  However, I contend that the structure, as it currently stands, does little to nothing to encourage personal preparation and this series is primarily about finding ways to change that.

Kim,
I know that the current manual says that and I believe that the leaders on the Sunday School board would like us to follow that advice.  But so long as the &quot;stick to the manual&quot; idea is so powerful amongst the membership, I think those pages will mostly be ignored.  Which is too, too bad.

Finally, I feel no sympathy for called teachers who would argue that they don&#039;t have time to prepare a class well.  If you don&#039;t have time, please don&#039;t accept the calling.  There is no shame in that.  I believe that Gospel Teaching is important and if we aren&#039;t willing to magnify our callings in it, then everyone loses.  I should also note that I am a big ol&#039; hypocrite on this front, but I am trying to become better.  smb, you are in this, as in most things, an example to me of how to do better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the distinction between critical thinking and gospel teaching is a false dichotomy.  And I agree with m&amp;m that there is a lot of good gospel teaching out there (I was encouraging people to share about it in the first post&#8217;s thread, but there is no reason to not share it here, too).</p>
<p>I also agree that often the primary problem with Sunday School participation is personal preparation.  However, I contend that the structure, as it currently stands, does little to nothing to encourage personal preparation and this series is primarily about finding ways to change that.</p>
<p>Kim,<br />
I know that the current manual says that and I believe that the leaders on the Sunday School board would like us to follow that advice.  But so long as the &#8220;stick to the manual&#8221; idea is so powerful amongst the membership, I think those pages will mostly be ignored.  Which is too, too bad.</p>
<p>Finally, I feel no sympathy for called teachers who would argue that they don&#8217;t have time to prepare a class well.  If you don&#8217;t have time, please don&#8217;t accept the calling.  There is no shame in that.  I believe that Gospel Teaching is important and if we aren&#8217;t willing to magnify our callings in it, then everyone loses.  I should also note that I am a big ol&#8217; hypocrite on this front, but I am trying to become better.  smb, you are in this, as in most things, an example to me of how to do better.</p>
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		<title>By: Rameumptom</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/#comment-171170</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rameumptom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 14:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=14617#comment-171170</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On the lesson on tithing, I would not say &quot;gross or net blessings&quot;, I would say that it is literally an issue to be determined by each individual and the Lord.  If the Spirit tells a person that his 10% net is a full tithe, then why confuse it with pithy statements that are not based upon any doctrinal truth?

Our lessons need to focus on doctrine and principles.  Those are the things that define our Church, and what strengthen the members. Although I&#039;ve deeply studied it over the years, I would be the last to suggest a detailed discussion on the signs of the times.  Why? Because doctrine only goes so far, and then the wild speculations come in.

But I would like to see a Nibley-esque form of teaching of doctrine.  Ancient and modern ideas that enhance our understanding of doctrine and principles.  As high priest group leader, I&#039;m having to work closely with my instructor to ensure the Gospel Principles manual does not become &quot;dumbed down&quot; information.  None of my high priests needs to have someone pull out 10 pennies and show them how much equals a tithe.  But they do need to know and understand the spiritual dimensions of the commandment.  It could be an interesting lesson IF we try to study its history (Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek - just what did Melchizedek use the tithes for?).

In studying the Old Testament this year, we are not going through the entire book as in years past. Instead, only certain topics are being picked out of it, and the first few lessons aren&#039;t even in the Bible!  Unless the instructor has a lot of knowledge and teaching skills, or allows for much discussion (and the class has good depth), we may see many classrooms taught on a very shallow basis.  Teaching a doctrine in-depth, when the materials given are very sparse, and the instructions forbid outside materials, means the instructors are walking a very tight rope. One risks a class between giving a dumbed down class and giving one that has members just sharing their testimonies. This will definitely require teachers to step up to the plate and not just spend a little time in the lesson manual, but a LOT of time on their knees.

To help my Sunday School class and other friends, I&#039;m doing a weekly blog on the OT lessons for them to see some of my insights, which probably will not make it into the lessons themselves.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the lesson on tithing, I would not say &#8220;gross or net blessings&#8221;, I would say that it is literally an issue to be determined by each individual and the Lord.  If the Spirit tells a person that his 10% net is a full tithe, then why confuse it with pithy statements that are not based upon any doctrinal truth?</p>
<p>Our lessons need to focus on doctrine and principles.  Those are the things that define our Church, and what strengthen the members. Although I&#8217;ve deeply studied it over the years, I would be the last to suggest a detailed discussion on the signs of the times.  Why? Because doctrine only goes so far, and then the wild speculations come in.</p>
<p>But I would like to see a Nibley-esque form of teaching of doctrine.  Ancient and modern ideas that enhance our understanding of doctrine and principles.  As high priest group leader, I&#8217;m having to work closely with my instructor to ensure the Gospel Principles manual does not become &#8220;dumbed down&#8221; information.  None of my high priests needs to have someone pull out 10 pennies and show them how much equals a tithe.  But they do need to know and understand the spiritual dimensions of the commandment.  It could be an interesting lesson IF we try to study its history (Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek &#8211; just what did Melchizedek use the tithes for?).</p>
<p>In studying the Old Testament this year, we are not going through the entire book as in years past. Instead, only certain topics are being picked out of it, and the first few lessons aren&#8217;t even in the Bible!  Unless the instructor has a lot of knowledge and teaching skills, or allows for much discussion (and the class has good depth), we may see many classrooms taught on a very shallow basis.  Teaching a doctrine in-depth, when the materials given are very sparse, and the instructions forbid outside materials, means the instructors are walking a very tight rope. One risks a class between giving a dumbed down class and giving one that has members just sharing their testimonies. This will definitely require teachers to step up to the plate and not just spend a little time in the lesson manual, but a LOT of time on their knees.</p>
<p>To help my Sunday School class and other friends, I&#8217;m doing a weekly blog on the OT lessons for them to see some of my insights, which probably will not make it into the lessons themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/#comment-171169</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[smb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 13:50:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=14617#comment-171169</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JC, if the manuals are the chicken nuggets, what is the barbecue dipping sauce? Inquiring minds, etc.

On a serious note, I find that it takes about 2-4 conscientious hours to write a decent lesson based on the manuals, and that&#039;s for someone who has spent about 15 years doing religious history as a pretty active sideline and has a reasonable reference library in the home.  People should realize that moving from chicken mcnuggets to stuffed pork loin with a French gratin takes a lot of time and energy.  I believe it&#039;s worth it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JC, if the manuals are the chicken nuggets, what is the barbecue dipping sauce? Inquiring minds, etc.</p>
<p>On a serious note, I find that it takes about 2-4 conscientious hours to write a decent lesson based on the manuals, and that&#8217;s for someone who has spent about 15 years doing religious history as a pretty active sideline and has a reasonable reference library in the home.  People should realize that moving from chicken mcnuggets to stuffed pork loin with a French gratin takes a lot of time and energy.  I believe it&#8217;s worth it.</p>
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		<title>By: Antonio Parr</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/01/06/everything-that-is-wrong-with-lds-gospel-teaching-part-2-bigger-faster-weaker/#comment-171167</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antonio Parr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 13:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=14617#comment-171167</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[65. Bogolubov: It was not so long ago that I was where you are now with respect to frustration with Church and limited Church attendance.  I am now fully active, in large part because I have shifted my focus from seeking to be edified during lessons to seeking opportunities to say something edifying, thus allowing me to create (in part) the Church experience that I am seeking.  This takes tact and patience and the companionsihp of the Spirit (all 3 of which are every bit as hard for me as it is for everyone), and I don&#039;t always succeed.   But when I do, Church can be a very good experience. 

Your mileage may vary, but I found this approach to be a lifesaver.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>65. Bogolubov: It was not so long ago that I was where you are now with respect to frustration with Church and limited Church attendance.  I am now fully active, in large part because I have shifted my focus from seeking to be edified during lessons to seeking opportunities to say something edifying, thus allowing me to create (in part) the Church experience that I am seeking.  This takes tact and patience and the companionsihp of the Spirit (all 3 of which are every bit as hard for me as it is for everyone), and I don&#8217;t always succeed.   But when I do, Church can be a very good experience. </p>
<p>Your mileage may vary, but I found this approach to be a lifesaver.</p>
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