<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Exit, Voice, and Change</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 20:28:39 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Latter-day Guy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/#comment-178740</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Latter-day Guy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:23:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=15762#comment-178740</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is no joke. In fact it makes sense. The LDS notion of families is based on the idea that a temple sealing trumps death. Unrepentant apostasy, being an act of will, is less easily overcome. 

Now, suicide does complicate the matter. It is very serious sin, so it could be considered tantamount to apostasy, but there are usually many mitigating factors concerning the deceased and their state of mind when they took their life. Nevertheless, I suspect that this kind of statement is indeed a factor in some suicides. I knew missionaries who were told, &quot;Come home clean. I&#039;d rather have you come home in a box than come home unclean.&quot; (I believe that&#039;s a quote from a talk or a book... anyway, the statement is pretty well known, and not infrequently repeated.)

Anyway, I wasn&#039;t joking. I also don&#039;t think the notion is an uncommon one within Mormondom.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is no joke. In fact it makes sense. The LDS notion of families is based on the idea that a temple sealing trumps death. Unrepentant apostasy, being an act of will, is less easily overcome. </p>
<p>Now, suicide does complicate the matter. It is very serious sin, so it could be considered tantamount to apostasy, but there are usually many mitigating factors concerning the deceased and their state of mind when they took their life. Nevertheless, I suspect that this kind of statement is indeed a factor in some suicides. I knew missionaries who were told, &#8220;Come home clean. I&#8217;d rather have you come home in a box than come home unclean.&#8221; (I believe that&#8217;s a quote from a talk or a book&#8230; anyway, the statement is pretty well known, and not infrequently repeated.)</p>
<p>Anyway, I wasn&#8217;t joking. I also don&#8217;t think the notion is an uncommon one within Mormondom.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott B.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/#comment-178677</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=15762#comment-178677</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You know what else just might surprise you? Chupacabras.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know what else just might surprise you? Chupacabras.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dan Weston</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/#comment-178672</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Weston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=15762#comment-178672</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Latter-day Guy,

&lt;i&gt;&quot;I know for a fact that my family would be less upset by my death than my apostasy. (Given our theology, this is understandable.)&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Please tell me this is a joke. The mere suspicion that this could be true may be a factor in too many suicides, so the meme should not be lightly propagated in jest.

And if it is not a joke, maybe you should have a talk with your parents. They might just surprise you. Mine did.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Latter-day Guy,</p>
<p><i>&#8220;I know for a fact that my family would be less upset by my death than my apostasy. (Given our theology, this is understandable.)&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Please tell me this is a joke. The mere suspicion that this could be true may be a factor in too many suicides, so the meme should not be lightly propagated in jest.</p>
<p>And if it is not a joke, maybe you should have a talk with your parents. They might just surprise you. Mine did.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: [nr]</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/#comment-178668</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[[nr]]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=15762#comment-178668</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, having listened to the Danzig interviews on Mormonstories, I am no upset and confused and doubting if I will ever qualify to go to the temple again.  I know I am where I am supposed to be, but now I am not sure where that is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, having listened to the Danzig interviews on Mormonstories, I am no upset and confused and doubting if I will ever qualify to go to the temple again.  I know I am where I am supposed to be, but now I am not sure where that is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John C.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/#comment-178663</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John C.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=15762#comment-178663</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Chupacabra has been seen as far south as Kanab and as far north as Brigham City.  His range is wide and his suckers are pointy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Chupacabra has been seen as far south as Kanab and as far north as Brigham City.  His range is wide and his suckers are pointy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter LLC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/#comment-178662</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter LLC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=15762#comment-178662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[None of the above, Mike. Check out Mexican Hat, Blanding and Castle Dale instead for a taste of the real Utah. Those other ones are just part of the Wasatch Front&#039;s urban sprawl.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>None of the above, Mike. Check out Mexican Hat, Blanding and Castle Dale instead for a taste of the real Utah. Those other ones are just part of the Wasatch Front&#8217;s urban sprawl.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MikeInWeHo</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/#comment-178659</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MikeInWeHo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=15762#comment-178659</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[re: inner v. public language

I suspect this tension is what makes the Bloggernacle so popular.  The anonymity of BCC, FMH, et. al. provides a safe environment for to bridge that gap.  Not really sure since it doesn&#039;t apply to me; just a thought.  What do you guys think?

Heber?  Clearfield?  American Fark (sic)?  How does one choose?  If I venture out of SLC next time I&#039;m in Utah, I&#039;d like to visit the Juniper Creek compound.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: inner v. public language</p>
<p>I suspect this tension is what makes the Bloggernacle so popular.  The anonymity of BCC, FMH, et. al. provides a safe environment for to bridge that gap.  Not really sure since it doesn&#8217;t apply to me; just a thought.  What do you guys think?</p>
<p>Heber?  Clearfield?  American Fark (sic)?  How does one choose?  If I venture out of SLC next time I&#8217;m in Utah, I&#8217;d like to visit the Juniper Creek compound.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Latter-day Guy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/#comment-178658</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Latter-day Guy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=15762#comment-178658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Late to this party. (It kinda looks more like a rave, actually––I&#039;m convinced there was mescaline involved in the creation of #41.)

Anyway, apropos of the whole apostasy/divorce angle, I recently found out that one of my past co-workers had left the Church. It was pretty big news to all of us, particularly as the job is Church related. It was interesting to hear the comments of some of my (current) co-workers. They generally would include some variation of &quot;That&#039;s awful. How could he do that to his wife!?&quot; (She&#039;s still active.) 

On one hand, I really do see their point. This decision has, I&#039;m sure, really complicated things for their little family. On the other hand, however, I don&#039;t sympathize with some of my co-workers&#039; insinuations that he was dishonest, and therefore his wife ought to consider divorce. He was raised in the Church, he kept the commandments (imperfectly, I&#039;m sure, just like the rest of us), he served a mission, and married in the Temple. Through all of that, he never felt like he had a testimony. He read and prayed, but nothing happened. 

I understand that there is some irony in being a testimony-less missionary, and (to some extent) in holding a TR sans-burning bosom. But aren&#039;t we essentially counseled to &quot;fake it till we make it&quot;? (For instance, BKP&#039;s famous line: &quot;A testimony is found in the bearing of it.&quot;) After going through over 23 years of life in the Church, never feeling like he had a spiritual witness, I can&#039;t hold his decision against him. How long &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; he have waited?

Hypothetically, were I to find myself in the same situation, I think I would stay. The familial cost of leaving would be too high; I know for a fact that my family would be less upset by my death than my apostasy. (Given our theology, this is understandable.) But that decision wouldn&#039;t be more honest or virtuous that his decision. Both roads are compromises.

So yeah, I think shunning/disowning/cutting ties is a pretty standard practice in the Church. While not officially sanctioned, it is nevertheless a frequently-used method of &quot;border patrol.&quot; I suspect that this phenomenon is actually part of a larger dynamic in LDS life: inner language v. public language. This is also reflected in the way we talk about missionary work: there are certain things you say over the pulpit or to groups including pre-missionaries––however, behind closed doors with other RM&#039;s, the conversations are often very different. Lots of the same horror stories/complaints/frustrations are brought up, but these things are very rarely mentioned to non-initiates. Consequently, most missionaries get a hefty dose of disillusionment during their first few transfers.

Anyway, this was a fascinating post, JNS.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Late to this party. (It kinda looks more like a rave, actually––I&#8217;m convinced there was mescaline involved in the creation of #41.)</p>
<p>Anyway, apropos of the whole apostasy/divorce angle, I recently found out that one of my past co-workers had left the Church. It was pretty big news to all of us, particularly as the job is Church related. It was interesting to hear the comments of some of my (current) co-workers. They generally would include some variation of &#8220;That&#8217;s awful. How could he do that to his wife!?&#8221; (She&#8217;s still active.) </p>
<p>On one hand, I really do see their point. This decision has, I&#8217;m sure, really complicated things for their little family. On the other hand, however, I don&#8217;t sympathize with some of my co-workers&#8217; insinuations that he was dishonest, and therefore his wife ought to consider divorce. He was raised in the Church, he kept the commandments (imperfectly, I&#8217;m sure, just like the rest of us), he served a mission, and married in the Temple. Through all of that, he never felt like he had a testimony. He read and prayed, but nothing happened. </p>
<p>I understand that there is some irony in being a testimony-less missionary, and (to some extent) in holding a TR sans-burning bosom. But aren&#8217;t we essentially counseled to &#8220;fake it till we make it&#8221;? (For instance, BKP&#8217;s famous line: &#8220;A testimony is found in the bearing of it.&#8221;) After going through over 23 years of life in the Church, never feeling like he had a spiritual witness, I can&#8217;t hold his decision against him. How long <em>should</em> he have waited?</p>
<p>Hypothetically, were I to find myself in the same situation, I think I would stay. The familial cost of leaving would be too high; I know for a fact that my family would be less upset by my death than my apostasy. (Given our theology, this is understandable.) But that decision wouldn&#8217;t be more honest or virtuous that his decision. Both roads are compromises.</p>
<p>So yeah, I think shunning/disowning/cutting ties is a pretty standard practice in the Church. While not officially sanctioned, it is nevertheless a frequently-used method of &#8220;border patrol.&#8221; I suspect that this phenomenon is actually part of a larger dynamic in LDS life: inner language v. public language. This is also reflected in the way we talk about missionary work: there are certain things you say over the pulpit or to groups including pre-missionaries––however, behind closed doors with other RM&#8217;s, the conversations are often very different. Lots of the same horror stories/complaints/frustrations are brought up, but these things are very rarely mentioned to non-initiates. Consequently, most missionaries get a hefty dose of disillusionment during their first few transfers.</p>
<p>Anyway, this was a fascinating post, JNS.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MCQ</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/#comment-178628</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MCQ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 08:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=15762#comment-178628</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Heber is great and everything, but Midway is where it&#039;s really at.  A tiny bit of heaven on earth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heber is great and everything, but Midway is where it&#8217;s really at.  A tiny bit of heaven on earth.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cynthia L.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/01/exit-voice-and-change/#comment-178617</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cynthia L.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 05:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bycommonconsent.com/?p=15762#comment-178617</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[...all the cool Chupacabras hang out in downtown Heber.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;all the cool Chupacabras hang out in downtown Heber.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

