Tuesday Morning Lived Mormonism Poll: Anti-Christ du jour poll

In keeping with the current Negative Nellie atmosphere amongst the Bloggernaclites, I give you the following poll. Who is your ward’s preferred scriptural Anti-Christ (note: neither Glenn Beck nor Barack Obama is an option).

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Comments

  1. I was shocked to see Korihor with such a strong showing.

    And many more such things did [Korihor] say unto them … but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime.

    The Church teaches members that the essence of this scripture is our imperative duty in American society. The ranks of the leadership are largely filled with successful businessmen, doctors, lawyers and professors. The ranks of church leadership stand before us bi-annually and instruct us to get as much education as we can. Education which, mind you, will lead you to bigger and better jobs.

    Gordon Hinckley, while serving as President of the Church, told us, “You are moving into the most competitive age the world has ever known. All around you is competition. You need all the education you can get. Sacrifice a car; sacrifice anything that is needed to be sacrificed to qualify yourselves to do the work of the world. That world will in large measure pay you what it thinks you are worth, and your worth will increase as you can education and proficiency in your chosen field.

    Let’s recap: (a) we need all the education we can get, (b) we should sacrifice “anything” to get that education, (c) we’re paid what others think we are worth, and (d) our worth increases with more education and proficiency.

    Sounds just like Korihor if you ask me – everyone prospers according to his or her own knowledge, strength and genius. Perhaps we should make a mental note of this.

    From Hugh Nibley: “Every step in the direction of increasing one’s personal holdings is a step away from Zion…one cannot serve two masters…so it is with God and business, for mammon is simply the standard Hebrew word for any kind of financial dealing.
    So money is the name of the game by which the devil cleverly decoys the minds of the Saints from God’s work to his. “What does the Lord want us up here in the tops of these mountains?” Brigham asked 20 years after the first settling of the Valley. “He wishes us to build up Zion. What are the people doing? They are merchandizing, trafficking and trading.

  2. I don’t know how my ward feels, but for me it’s Korihor all the way, and not for such high-minded reasons as Justin gives. It’s purely because in the Phil Dalby comic strip version of the Book of Mormon that I’m running on Keepa on Sunday mornings [/shameless plug], in the four-part episode entitled “Korihor the Evil,” Korihor is drawn as a long-haired, mustachioed, blond beach bum wearing shaggy briefs somehow reminiscent of caveman attire. None of your other suggested villains come close to being as amusing.

  3. Oh, Justin.

    You gloss over the key to Korihor’s philosophy: “and whatsoever a man did was no crime.”

    His philosophy was that there is no good or evil and what you can get away with is right.

    Unlike Korihor, we believe in right and wrong.
    Unlike Korihor, we believe in sin and repentance.
    Unlike Korihor, we believe in eternal salvation through the grace of Jesus Christ.

    Our Church’s philosophy (to paraphrase Gordon B. in the above quote and his other teachings) is to achieve as much as you can, be the best you can, get as much education as you can, while following Christ’s teachings.

    Although the quote from Nibley appears to indicate that you cannot increase personal holdings while growing closer to God, that just ain’t the doctrine of the Church.

    Money and things don’t save you and they don’t damn you. If you use them for good, then you are following Christ’s teachings, and if used for evil, or obtained by evil, then you are damning yourself.

  4. Justin,
    Pres. Hinckley was making a point about the importance of education in being able to provide for ourselves in this age. He can’t change the nature of the game we have to play. We can’t all be farmers anymore. I thing Pres. Young’s point must be taken to heart, but the world has changed to the point that we can’t all be farmers and teachers.

    Not to mention Korihor taught that man could not do “wrong”. I think that’s the hook in the teaching that crosses over into full blown anti-christ.

    Hugh Nibley is awesome, and he worked harder than any investment banker I’m sure, but those kinds of positions are not really available for more than a handful of people.

    So we can either get an education and seek a good job that will pay well, so we can then have the degree of self reliance/independence to serve others.

    Love God and the neighbor so much that we don’t worry about a good job and be happy digging ditches and working in McDonalds (And i’m not bashing these), but also have limited time and funds available to us to help others.

    Or be an unprofitable farmer who spends all our time fixing broken water pipes, getting the ox out of the mire and visiting and complaining about that bank and those evil money counters.

    —-
    To the topic.
    Korihor is just the first that comes to mind based on the name, not necessarily the doctrine he taught. But if you’re going to include Zeezrom why not include Alma the Younger and Sons of Mosiah?

  5. Justin, I think it’s also entirely likely, preferable to read Brigham Young’s condemnation of the saints under his watch as a condemnation of those under his watch. We don’t need to extrapolate that exact standard to modern times. Bu we should be aware of the principle at work. Which is – how much do we focus on making money and how much do we focus on loving God and serving our neighbor? We can then make an adjustment.

  6. Chris #5:

    I would challenge your premise that:
    He can’t change the nature of the game we have to play.

    Why is it that you believe we have to play Babylon’s game? Could we expect no better from our prophet than to direct us out of Babylon’s employment and into Zion?

    Have we not advanced an “Anti-Christ” doctrine that suggests all of us will, at the last, be saved in the kingdom of God? The whole system has been worked out for us. The odds are you’re going to be exalted — Deseret Book has taken a firm stand on that very subject.

  7. Korihor is an obvious win.

  8. “Have we not advanced an “Anti-Christ” doctrine that suggests all of us will, at the last, be saved in the kingdom of God? The whole system has been worked out for us. The odds are you’re going to be exalted — Deseret Book has taken a firm stand on that very subject.”

    Funniest thing I’ve seen this month!

  9. Nehor is the worst Anti-Christ because he violently enforced his preaching with the sword. That kind of barbaric coercion should not be allowed within a few blocks of the Ground Zero.

  10. By “worst Anti-Christ”, I mean that he was the most anti of the anti-Christs. In other words, he was the best anti-Christ.

  11. No, we much prefer the brand of barbaric coercion enforced by the ignoramus’s pen.

  12. I was called a Korihor by a guy at BYU when I bested him in a debate over abortion.

  13. Daniel #13:
    I hope you took it as a compliment.

  14. Justin,

    You’re not the prophet. You don’t know me. Don’t assume I’m focused on wealth accumulation, etc. You’re probably correct in assuming many of us won’t reach the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, but also keep in mind God makes that call, not you or I. Also keep in mind, BY himself taught the principle that a living prophet takes precedence over a dead one.

    The prophet knows the will of the Lord for this generation and it’s apparently to speak kindly and charitably and encourage us to be better, only occasionally reproving with sharpness.

    Instead of assuming they are wrong, ask in faith why this might be, and ponder some answers. If you’re doing it in faith and humility you can find the correct answers, and not those that just assume the prophets have watered down doctrine and are becoming anti-christs.

  15. Just need to clarify one thing–the Justin in this thread is NOT Justin the Wasp.

  16. With that, Scott, I died a little inside.

  17. Sorry John. I had to do it–think of the children.

    Also, he was invoking Hugh Nibley as if he were a prophet or something, which always pisses me off.

  18. Korihor and I need to get out more.

  19. Chris:

    The impression I get from your statements is that you are not a prophet, meaning that you do not possess the gift to prophesy. Your declarations strike me more as wishful thinking than any familiarity with the spirit of prophecy and revelation.

    What I wrote was not an attack on you because, as you say: “You don’t know me.” I meant them only as an attack on your words.

    I shutter to hear such Korihor-like doctrine that we must manage our creature according to the management of Babylon in order to be paid a wage the world thinks we are worth — especially when it was presented to the youth. This is why I find it so interesting that Korihor has such a lead in this poll.

    The prophet knows the will of the Lord for this generation…
    You would suggest that in a world plagued by poverty, war, and materialism — the Lord is most concerned with the kind of gainful employment the saints are achieving?

    Instead of assuming that I am wrong, ask in faith why this might be, and ponder some answers. If you’re doing it in faith and humility you can find the correct answers, and not those that just assume I am misrepresenting quotes and insulting you.

  20. Steve Evans says:

    Wow, Justin kinda turned into a huge ass.

  21. Indeed, Steve. You want to do it, or should I?

  22. Also, he was invoking Hugh Nibley as if he were a prophet or something, which always pisses me off.

    Buuuuuut, at least he stopped short of calling someone to repentance and telling them to pray “and if you do it in faith [you'll see things my way]” (see 15)

  23. Scott, I don’t want to interfere – you should do it.

  24. Oh, Steve–you wouldn’t be interfering! You do it–I insist!

  25. No, I insist. You’ve already done so much!

  26. whelp, looks like I spoke too soon . . . .

  27. Please amend your poll, John C. I want to vote for not-the-Wasp-Justin.

  28. How about we do it together then? On 3? Ready?

  29. One…

  30. Two…

  31. Let’s hold hands and click ‘ban’ on 3.

    3…

  32. I don’t mean to be a huge ass. I originally commented because I found it interesting that Korihor is the overwhelming winner of the poll, when I associate his doctrine with such paradoxes as Zion’s Bank and a BYU School of Business.

  33. dammit it’s a COUNTDOWN!

  34. Sorry…Starting over.

  35. Okay, you count.

  36. Three…

  37. (this reminds me of the toilet scene in Lethal Weapon 2)

    Two…

  38. Scott, Steve . . . . . . . . wow, just wow. There’re couples married for decades that aren’t as synced as you.

  39. –wait, do we go on one or on zero?

  40. Ban on zero–so you’ll say “One” and then we’ll push “Ban” together.

  41. ok, ok

    Two….

  42. One….

  43. Scott B. & Steve Evans says:

    Not-the-Wasp Justin,
    You’re BANNINATED!

  44. Wow. We’ve never had it so good! Someone get me one of those chewing gum fake cigarettes…

  45. who’s voting for Zeezrom? The dude isn’t an antichrist, he’s a hero. Read the whole story folks.

  46. “Wow. We’ve never had it so good! Someone get me one of those chewing gum fake cigarettes…”

    Correction…funniest thing I’ve seen all month (see #9)

  47. Steve and Scott: Your extreme courtesy to each other would make your mommas proud. This display of good manners almost makes me tear up. Not-Wasp-Justin should feel warm and fuzzy.

  48. I was on my mission on 6-6-1996. For two weeks prior, people were talking about the coming of the “anti-Christ.” This was especially funny to me because it was ’96, which sort of disrupts the evil 6-6-6ness of the day. So for two friggin’ weeks we ended up explaining to people, in response to their question about it, who or what the “anti-Christ” is. It was seriously a goofy part of my mission.

    My ward’s current fav anti-Christ are the priests of Baal (until Elijah executed them next to the river) even though they preceded Christ chronologically. I love my ward.

  49. But if you ban Justin, I can’t explain to him that it’s “shudder” and not “shutter.”

  50. In our ward we don’t want to overlook any anti-Christs, so we just refer to them as “the world”. It’s so much easier and safer that way.

    Seriously, though, for me the anti-Christ stories are the most instructive, thought provoking, and relevant content in the Book of Mormon when it comes to gauging my behavior.

  51. This was especially funny to me because it was ’96, which sort of disrupts the evil 6-6-6ness of the day.

    Well, thats why EVERYONE knows the REAL anti-christ was born three years, two months, and eleven days ago.

    Heaven help us in 14 years, nine months, and twenty days when he meets the age of majority. All Hell’s breakin’ loose!

  52. Also, since anti had different meanings in the BoM (Anti-Nephi-Lehites) Could it be that we’ve been misreading the BoM for years, and these “Anti-Christs” are really celebrated individuals whom we have been demonizing for decades?
    Perhaps Justin was half right, that Korihor was teaching the modern day version of the gospel. eh? eh? eh?

  53. Thomas Parkin says:

    Yeah, Justin may have crossed over in one post … problem is, for all y’all lawyers and doctors and whatnot, he’s more right than wrong. For most of us, our telestial aspirations are what we live for hour by hour, year by year. I see Pres Hinckley’s words as simply good advice in world that is racket without end. But if what he is talking about is what we are _about_, then we’ve got a big big problem … and we do. ~

  54. Okay, fine. I’ll un-banninate him, TP.

  55. Thomas Parkin,

    I agree with the principle of Justin’s post – that too much materialism is bad. What gets my goat is that he takes Gordon B.’s words out of context to compare the policies of our Church to Korihor. They’re just not close. He has a pet issue and he’ll cite quotes to support the issue, but he ignores DOCTRINE (I would have underlined that if I knew how).

    Gordon B. once taught kids who may not have been motivated to excel in school to do their best so they could support a family, worry less about finances, etc. etc., and Justin twisted that message into a focus on materialism by Gordon B. It’s obnoxious.

  56. Since I have been un-banninated:

    Will anyone address why we should care to be paid what the world thinks we are worth?

  57. Thomas Parkin says:

    Not saying he shouldn’t be banned, Scott … just that I’ve got some sympathy for what he’s doing. He’s over making a point, pretty much my personality profile. ;) ~

  58. Wait — who unbanned that guy?!?!

  59. I should think every later-day saint should agree with the principle of what BY said. And we should be careful to walk that fine line and recognize to often we fall to one side of it. But anyone who has a desire to gain an education or a plan to provide for their family that involves making material sacrifices for the sake of an education so they can personally continue building Zion in their own home and in the church is not a Korihor.

    And 23, Russ, I didn’t call anyone to repentance, but said it’s my belief the Lord will help you to understand why the prophets say what they say and it will likely be a different answer than what I think, but both true pieces of the puzzle. But I believe you’ll be missing most of the picture if you start with the assertion that Pres. Hinckley was wrong to push for education, in the midst of 1000 other talks about encouraging to love your neighbor and actually live the principles that would accompany a Zion-like life.

  60. John Mansfield says:

    “My ward’s current fav anti-Christ are the priests of Baal (until Elijah executed them next to the river) even though they preceded Christ chronologically.”

    Ante Christ anti-Christs?

  61. P.S. One more thought before I head off to enjoy the farmers’ market where I live:

    I shared a quote, above, about the value of the message vs. the messenger. In re-reading that, I thought I might do something to see if we could see Christ saying the same thing – as blasphemous as that will seem to some of you:

    “You are moving into the most competitive age the world has ever known. All around you is competition. You need all the education you can get. Sacrifice a car; sacrifice anything that is needed to be sacrificed to qualify yourselves to do the work of the world. That world will in large measure pay you what it thinks you are worth, and your worth will increase as you can education and proficiency in your chosen field.”

    Now, would Christ say that – that we need to sacrifice anything/everything we can to “qualify yourselves to do the work of the world”? Don’t castigate me because I raise the question – I think it might be a useful personal exercise.

  62. John Mansfield FTW.

    Tom, yes He would.

  63. Holy cow Tom. I’m sure is Pres. Hinckley was here he’d say not to read too intently into his words. Have come charity in reading what he said in that one quote, measured against the entire backdrop of his thousands of sayings. If it were a problem that we were all straining at that gnat and agreeing to sacrifice everything and striving to gain the approval the world in our jobs it would be a problem indeed.

    Jesus also compared a woman to dog who was not fit to eat at the table. Let’s start doing that to every woman we come across? Don’t make him or the prophets an offender for a word please.

  64. Justin asked: “Will anyone address why we should care to be paid what the world thinks we are worth?”

    It’s a bit of a thread-jack, but I’ll bite, since it’s tangentially related to Korihor.

    You have to live within your means to support yourself/your family and to be able to provide time and money to the Church. You have to know what your means are to know how to live within them. You have to know what the world thinks you (in your occupation) are worth to know what your means are. Ergo, you should know what the world thinks you (in your occupation) are worth to determine how you can best support your family and Church with time and money.

    This teaching of being prudent shouldn’t be confused with Korihor’s teaching that more is better, e.g. more money means you are a better person. But if a young person has an opportunity to become a professional with spare time and money to give to the Church and the community rather than working two jobs to support a family, we should encourage the young person to get the education to become a professional.

    An Anti-Christ is anti- Christ. If we go to school and work with an attempt to focus on Christ, to repent, to improve ourselves, and to build the Kingdom of God, then we are necessarily not following the teachings of Korihor.

  65. very nice 63.

    Really all of them on the list except the last one predate Christ chronologically.

  66. John Taber says:

    My ward has way too many lawyers for Zeezrom to be a choice there.

  67. No choice for Gordon Gekko? Oh yeah. He’s fictional.

  68. John Mansfield says:

    While shopping for with my wife, my son of about three years hid in a clothes rack, then pulled back the hangers to reveal himself, and with the most menace he might muster announced, “I am Giddianhi!” A villian that a child can appreciate, even if not labeled an anti-Christ. If George Bernard Shaw had been writing, he’d have been a hero of sorts (thinking of Mendoza in Man and Superman).

  69. I just read all of Alma 30 and compared his words to the words of our latter-day prophets. I think it is a grievous error to take a few phrases out of context and say that Pres. Hinckley taught the philosophies of Korihor, when Korihor taught things such as these:

    “there should be no Christ”
    “prophecies … are foolish traditions of your fathers”
    a belief in the remission of sins is “the effect of a frenzied mind” and “derangement”
    (Getting to the one part that not-Wasp-Justin quoted) “there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime.”

    The last is really where Satan uses his skills at twisting words and teaching half-truths. Do we fare in this life according to the management of the creature? Yes, we do. Do we prosper according to our genius? Well, if you believe in a meritocracy, then yes. Those who believe in aristocracy, on the other hand, believe that prosperity is inherited. Do men conquer according to their strength? Yes, they do. Especially if their strength is rooted in a faith in Christ. What about this last bit, that “whatsoever a man [does is] no crime”? That is where suddenly Korihor veers off the path of truth and righteousness.

    So, no, it is not right to say that Justin was right in accusing the modern church of teaching Korihor-like doctrines.

    And as far as his other question about being paid what the world thinks we are worth, why not look at the words of Christ? “The labourer is worthy of his hire.” I think that is about as clear as you can get when it comes to deserving wages for work. But hey, if you want to work without any kind of compensation, be my guest. Personally, I like being able to provide for myself and my wife without asking for handouts from family, friends, the church, and the government.

  70. I’m surprised. I’ve never thought of BCC as a “banning” type of blog. It’s interesting to me that the LDS church is sometimes seen as attempting to silence dissenting voices, but I’ve noticed that on many bloggernacle sites that someone can get bloodied and bruised by straying outside of the “accepted” train of thought. I, actually, love to hear the “alterative” voices as long as they are not profane or biligerant, even when they strike a nerve.

    (p.s. please don’t hurt me too bad. I’m more than willing to take it all back just to be loved!)

  71. larry – I am still a relative newbie to BCC, but one of the rules for the blog is to not call others to repentance, because that is simply not our responsibility. (I know there is a link somewhere to the post that outlines the rules, but I couldn’t find it.)

    Disagreeing is accepted and encouraged. Being disagreeable is not. It is a distinction I have to teach kids in grade school, but I expect adults to understand the difference.

  72. “I’m surprised. I’ve never thought of BCC as a “banning” type of blog.”

    BWAH HAW HAH HA HAW!!!!!!!

  73. I follow the creed that if it’s funny it must be done. This particular banning was bloody hilarious.

  74. Steve, how many people have been banned?

  75. Alex, take a walk on the beach and count the grains of sand.

  76. Alex and larry: And getting banned is fun, too! Just repeat after me: “Neil Young sucks” and you’ll suddenly get this funny feeling and you, too, will be ex’ed! And no “Courts of Love” to have to endure, either!

  77. 77 – Hunter – What is a “Court of Love”?

  78. BCC is a Court of Love.

    People are loved enough to be banned in order to keep them from the natural correction that would and should follow. It’s all about protecting them.

  79. Huh?

  80. Exactly, Eric S. There are no Courts of Love around these parts.

    (Seriously, though, if you don’t know the term “Court of Love” I’d best describe it as a euphemism for a church disciplinary proceeding. Sometimes church authorities have referred lovingly to church courts as this, while some ex-Mos use it as a term of derision.)

  81. I’m in the group that wonders why Zeezrom is even in the list, especially when he’s a very strong parallel of Alma the Elder (was part of a group of wicked elites, the only one of that group to believe and repent, and went on to become a great missionary). Abinadab(sp) even names him by name in Helaman 5.

  82. Zeezrom essentially goes on to become a mission president.

  83. Maybe that’s why he’s a favorite Anti-Christ. The converted Anti-Christs are the best Anti-Christs.

    Except by Fletcher #11’s standards, that would make him the worst Anti-Christ, not the best.

  84. Zeezrom gets cited (in my experience) a lot more than Alma the Younger. I don’t know why, but that is why he is up there. I suspect it is because he is a lawyer.

  85. re: #70 (Alex T.)

    You stated: “And as far as his other question about being paid what the world thinks we are worth, why not look at the words of Christ? “The labourer is worthy of his hire.” I think that is about as clear as you can get when it comes to deserving wages for work. But hey, if you want to work without any kind of compensation, be my guest. Personally, I like being able to provide for myself and my wife without asking for handouts from family, friends, the church, and the government.”

    I might recommend you re-read the verses of scripture where it states “the labourer is worthy of his hire.” Context is important.

    The gulf that separates us from Zion is incredible.

  86. Tom, if you’re still picking nits I came across this today from Brother Brigham.

    “When brother George Q. tells us we should not labor for the earth and the things of this world, he means we should not labor with sinful motives, and to gratify the lusts of the flesh. But if we possessed the treasure of the Gentile world, could we not send our Elders to the ends of the earth, bearing the precious Gospel to all living? Could we not sustain their families during their absence? Could we not build Temple after Temple and otherwise hasten on the work of redemption? Yes. But keep the people in poverty and how are we to accomplish this great work? I say, let us gather and accumulate the things of the earth in the manner indicated by the Lord, and then devote it to God and the building up of his kingdom. “

  87. Thanks, Chris, for watching my back. I’m glad to know there are those out there who would make sure I don’t pick too many “nits.”

    Perhaps this should/would suffice:

    “Brother Joseph Smith gave us the word of the Lord; it was simply this: `Never do another day’s work to build up a Gentile city never lay out another dollar while you live, to advance the world in its present state; it is full of wickedness and violence; no regard is paid to the prophets, nor the prophecyings of the prophets, nor to Jesus nor his sayings, nor the word of the Lord that was given anciently, nor to that given in our day. They have gone astray, and they are building up themselves, and they are promoting sin and iniquity upon the earth; and,’ said he, `it is the word and commandment of the Lord to his servants that they shall never do another day’s work, nor spend another dollar to build up a Gentile city’” (Brigham Young, J.D. 11:294-295)”

    There another day goes.

  88. Brigham bashing!

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