Idaho Mormons: Handgun Justification Edition

A BCC reader writes:

“A friend up in Idaho can get a handgun IF he is able to find a quote from a modern day prophet/leader that grants/encourages/blesses such an act (in order to appease his wife). Can the bloggernacle find such a quote?”

Go forth, bloggernaclers! Let us work to arm this faithful brother!

Comments

  1. Booooooo.

  2. Droyslden says:

    “I first met Joseph Smith in the streets of Kirtland. He had on an old hat, and a pistol in his hand. Said he, ‘Brother Woodruff, I’ve been out shooting at a mark, and I wanted to see if I could hit anything.’ And, said he, ‘Have you any objection to it?’

    “ ‘Not at all,’ said I. ‘There is no law against a man shooting at a mark, that I know of.’

    “He invited me to his house. He had a wolf skin, which he wanted me to help him to tan; he wanted it to sit on while driving his wagon team. Now, many might have said, ‘You are a pretty prophet; shooting a pistol and tanning a wolf skin.’ Well, he tanned it, and used it while making a journey of a thousand miles. This was my first acquaintance with the Prophet Joseph. And from that day until the present, with all the apostasies we have had, and with all the difficulties and afflictions we have been called to pass through, I never saw a moment when I had any doubt with regard to this work. I have had no trial about this. While the people were apostatizing on the right hand and on the left, … it was no temptation to me to doubt this work or to doubt that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.” (Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, ed. G. Homer Durham, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1946, pp. 29–30.)

    Found here

  3. Awesome. Now the wife can make owning a firearm conditional on (a) tanning a wolf, (b) wearing the skin, (c) while making a thousand-mile journey on foot/horse/etc.

  4. “Scouting is the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood.”

    The BSA has a Rifle and Shotgun merit badge.

    Therefore, shooting is an integral part of the Priesthood.

    Or, you could always use my favorite scene from “The Godmakers”. The video shows a gun safe full of rifles, shotguns, pistols, and ammunition. The voice-over says “Mormons are encouraged to have two years worth of supplies to prepare for turmoil and disasters.”

    President Kimball famously said “Don’t shoot the little birdies.” Since he didn’t say anything about deer, elk, moose, or ATF agents coming into your home, we must assume that these are allowed. It’s the classic argument that the existance of an exception excludes other exceptions.

  5. If you’re making an appeal to dead prophets to appease your wife, then you have other serious problems in your marriage…

  6. I would simply go with the fact that in the cell in Nauvoo JS had a multi-shot pistol and that he actually fired it at the mobbers possibly wounding some of them.

    Here where I live in suburban Texas owning guns amongst LDS folks is really really common. Our Bishop actually encourages law enforcement people and others with concealed carry licenses to carry handguns at church.

  7. bbell – I believe that it’s Church policy that there are no guns in buildings (except for active-duty law enforcement, I’m sure). Maybe I’ve misunderstood it?

  8. Latter-day Guy says:

    It’s only a gun for heaven’s sake. Just buy it. (Also, invest in The Grasshopper Trap by Patrick McManus, and pay particular attention to the chapter entitled “Gunrunning.”)

  9. Observer (f.k.a. Eric. S.) says:

    (6) That’s so he won’t get shot, and that the congregation will shot the intruder first. The bishop I had, when I was younger, asked two men–both in law enforcement–to sit next to the entry doors to the sacrament room during services.

  10. 7 you are correct. From the new Handbook 2

    21.2.4 Firearms
    Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.

    BTW this was an issue in our ward, and yes I live in Idaho.

  11. From the children’s friend, December 1982, page 40, them money quote is:

    “Now I want you children to know that the only reason the Prophet Joseph carried a gun was that the persecution he endured was sometimes so intense that he was forced to arm himself for his own safety.

  12. #10 Right. It sounds like the “officers of the law” exception designed to not make members choose between the required terms of their employment and their ability to partake of the sacrament. It is not for allowing anyone with a conceal carry permit to carry to church because they want to.

  13. “I would simply go with the fact that in the cell in Nauvoo JS had a multi-shot pistol and that he actually fired it at the mobbers possibly wounding some of them.”

    Indeed. Before the SCOTUS decision in Heller, one might have argued that JS headed the Nauvoo Militia, and y’know, the 2nd Amendment is only about owning firearms pursuant to membership in a “militia”. So the Smith precedent would have no application in the present.

    But now, we’re living post-Heller, so the precedent seems stronger. :)

  14. The Brethren must recollect that from this point they pass through a savage country, and their safety depends on good firearms and plenty of ammunition;
    –Council of 12 Apostles, Millennial Star, March 15, 1848

    http://lds.org/ensign/1971/07/general-epistle?lang=eng

  15. #14: Um, yeah–inappropriate language alert! (not at you personally, Steve_G)

  16. “He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.”

    Have him tell his wife, he will no longer buy replacement garments and will wear them until holes appear in all sorts of places until he can buy a gun.

  17. Dead prophets?! Pshaw! Try this one:

    “Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities.”
    From The Family: A Proclamation to the World (1995).

    Target shooting with handguns = wholesome recreational activity

  18. If she’s trying to make it difficult maybe get a clue and talk to he about it instead of playing this game?

    #6 doesn’t make sense to me. I understand allowing handguns, but what’s the point of encouraging people to carry them in church? I’d also love to know how leadership in Texas is responding to the handbook entry mentioned in #10.

  19. Observer (f.k.a. Eric. S.) says:

    “Target shooting with handguns = wholesome recreational activity.” It might not be the best day to mention targets and handguns as a recreational activity. Disclaimer #1: I’m not trying to jack the thread or cause the thread to be jacked. Disclaimer #2: By saying this I’m not suggesting any endorsement of the factually unfounded nexus that has been swirling the last three days re a certain web-site’s use of cross-hair graphics and the tragedy on Saturday.

  20. the handbook applies in Texas?

  21. Mommie Dearest says:

    I would never take a handgun to Target

  22. #17: Wholesome recreational activities! He did end up buying a gun, btw. Not with my blessing, but without me going (too) ballistic (so to speak).

  23. The husband from the post should just show his wife this video, then say, c’mon honey, how can you not want me to be hot like this guy?!

  24. It always concerns me when Idaho aspires to be more like Texas, I mean, can’t you aim a little higher than that?

  25. I am now preparing to shield myself from all the concealed-carry LDS Texans on this blog. Living some 2000 miles away should help.

  26. Alma 43:47 “And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed.” You could also use this to justify the purchase of a sword.

  27. The handbook does absolutely apply in Texas. Especially in the DFW area, consider that there are wards with less than 10% native Texans, and even those native DFW Texans don’t “fit the image”.

    I was in a ward in LA County (California) over the holidays and counted more trucks and boots at a sacrament meeting than I might find attending an entire stake conference in my stake…

  28. Observer (f.k.a. Eric. S.) says:

    (27) I imagine that low rider trucks and side-zip pleather ankle boots don’t count as “trucks” or “boots” in Texas.

  29. The good prophet Glenn Beck has spoken on gun ownership many times: “[. . . ] because I’ve got to tell you, you come for my gun, I am not giving you my gun.”

    The prophet speaketh. He who hath ears, let him hear!

  30. Poorly timed edition.

  31. Julie M. Smith says:

    Hoooboy, bad timing.

  32. That boy can’t handle a gun if he has to ask his wife’s permission for it.

  33. we’ve got some serious problems if we have to go to this level to just to own a gun!!

  34. Hm, can’t imagine what you were thinking on this post.

  35. What about Brigham Young and his advice to sleep with a pistol under the pillow?

  36. Eric Russell says:

    I don’t get the comments about the timing. I interpreted the request as a response to the situation. I bet handgun sales are going up right now with people feeling they need to protect themselves.

  37. #24

    Amen and Amen

  38. Yeah, Eric, more people with handguns at that Safeway would have been a perfect solution to the problem.

  39. I think the couple ought to put “Full Metal Jacket” at the top of their Netflix queue. After watching it, they can decide together whether the husband should go buy a gun.

  40. Eric Russell says:

    I’m not defending the rationale, MCQ.

  41. MCQ,

    Yeah, because the presence of even one more gun, even in the hands of a responsible sane person, would have caused them to lose control and contribute to the murdering other innocent people as well… Maybe they should make Safeways “gun free” zones so that nothing will happen.

    All I know is my husband has made me watch one too many zombie movies for me to not want him to keep a gun in the house.

  42. Cynthia L. says:

    Chelsey, I don’t follow. Why do you expect zombies to come to your house?

  43. Thomas Parkin says:

    “Why do you expect zombies to come to your house?”

    It could happen.

  44. Cynthia, you mean you have been spared the zombie raids at your house?

  45. this a personal matter between the husband and wife and the bishop

  46. Wow.

  47. Silly. Everyone knows that in the zombie apocalypse all you have to do is put “Thriller” on the stereo and you can slip away while all the zombies are doing the group dance number. No zombie can resist that.

  48. #45 – I hope that was a joke.

  49. #45 & #48,

    I am pretty sure #45 was a joke. However, there recently was a story about a man who used a pistol as part of his – um – “marital activities” with his wife. He did not clear the chamber before engaging in said activities and fatally shot his wife in the head.

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/12/28/oklahoma.sex.death/index.html?iref=allsearch

    Maybe we will hear new counsel that adds firearms to the list of things we shouldn’t bring into the bedroom.

  50. There were people with concealed weapons at the Safeway according to the reports I read. Having more weapons didn’t prevent anything.

    Why do these conversations automatically turn into people getting worried that their right to carry a gun is going to be snatched away?

  51. Silly. Everyone knows that in the zombie apocalypse all you have to do is put “Thriller” on the stereo and you can slip away while all the zombies are doing the group dance number. No zombie can resist that.

    And to think–not 20 comments ago, MCQ was struggling to understand the value of this thread.

  52. why would it be a joke to talk to the bishop about use of a *cough cough* hand gun? CHI clearly states to involve the bishop in discussions regarding the big ‘V’, so I don’t see this being any different.

  53. it's a series of tubes says:

    Yeah, Eric, more people with handguns at that Safeway would have been a perfect solution to the problem.

    I hope I’m not misinterpreting your position, MCQ. If you think that banning reasonable, lawful access to handguns somehow reduces human tendencies to violence and/or mental illness… come spend some time with me in the rougher parts of Birmingham, England. No guns since Dunblaine, but sticks and stones and shivs aplenty, and more short-fuse violence, racial and socioeconomic hatred, and flat-out mental nuttery than you can shake a stick at.

    If that’s not your position, or the position of others in this thread, my apologies in advance.

    It is true that a handgun magnifies the ability of a violent / mentally unstable person to do harm – but so does an automobile, an airplane, a bulldozer, electricity, and all sorts of other tools which are capable of misuse as well as use. On the other side, a handgun magnifies the ability of a smaller and/or weaker person to protect themselves from a physically superior aggressor or group.

  54. MCQ,

    I think that Thriller comment was one of your best efforts in the bloggernaccle to date. Truly niblet worthy.

    If you saw the movie Zombieland a nice addition to the film would have been such a thriller moment.

    So in answer to some of the questions about the CHI yes I am aware its there but I am not sure if anybody cares around here. Kind of like nobody seems to care about the advice against vasectomies. I am not carrying in church but I know many people that are and its not just my ward. In order to legally ban guns from an LDS church in Texas there would need to be a sign at every door referencing the applicable state statute that permits a property owner to ban concealed carry guns on the premises.

  55. StillConfused says:

    Why not just tell her this: “Honey, I love you enough to suffer the mental ravages of having to take a life to protect you from suffering the mental and physical ravages of being brutalized by one or more men who enter our home intent on doing evil to you.”

  56. StillConfused says:

    #35 — Which of his wives was he talking about?

  57. StillConfused,
    You raise an interesting question. From the OP:

    A friend up in Idaho can get a handgun IF he is able to find a quote from a modern day prophet/leader that grants/encourages/blesses such an act (in order to appease his wife).

    I see multiple interpretations here:
    1. The GA made the statement generally regarding handguns.
    2. The GA must have made the statement specifically for the purpose of appeasing the purchaser’s wife.
    3. The GA must have made the statement specifically for the purpose of appeasing the GA’s own wife.

  58. Why should the church have to “ban” weapons at church, even in Texas, bbell? Are the people there so (1) paranoid or (2) unwilling to listen to counsel from the brethren that there would have to be a “rule”?

    It’s bloody ridiculous. All these people who suddenly think they’re Wyatt Earp.

    As I read Fletcher’s comment (49) I was almost afraid that it was leading to some awful corollary to the supposed J. Golden Kimball warning that young men carrying revolvers around in the waistband of their trousers risked “shooting their brains off.”

  59. All these people who suddenly think they’re Wyatt Earp.

    I question the “suddenly” part. I’ve thought I was Wyatt Earp since I was 6 years old.

  60. The only times I have ever shot a gun were on Church or scouting outings in Arizona. Turned out I shot pretty well (may have been beginners luck).

    My wife won’t help any more on moving assignments because on the last one, two of the men were carrying guns openly, and when we commented about it to a friend also there, he said he thought it was stupid for them to do so. Because if one carries openly, someone else could grab the gun and shoot. So, our friend said, it is better to carry concealed, and lifted up his T-shirt to show his gun. He did say the only place he does not carry is in the temple.

    Needless to say, to my knowledge, our elders and high priests group have never been bothered during moving assignments.

    I am not sure why people refer to Arizona as the wild west. We do get two points from the Brady campaign for gun control http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/scorecard/AZ –only Utah has more open gun laws, they get zero. http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/scorecard/UT

    Texas is a veritable paradise for gun control advocates–it gets nine points. http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/scorecard/TX

  61. Observer (f.k.a. Eric. S.) says:

    (60) Guess you never know when you’ll need a gun at a high priest group move.

  62. On this topic, I think William Saletan’s column today is Slate is interesting:
    http://www.slate.com/id/2280794/

  63. Adam Greenwood says:

    “Arm yourselves, and be ye men of valor.”

    If your wife doesn’t accept Winston Churchill as an authority in these matters, frankly I have to question why you married her in the first place, the heatheness.

  64. anonforthis says:

    professionally I get involved in lots of police shootings. Professional training is overrated for keeping a guy from making mistakes. Saletan is talking through his hat.

  65. 62 – while I agree its something to ponder, I think the conclusions are a little like a snowball running down a hill. It starts with a small idea, and then he runs away with it, letting it grow and grow until:

    That’s what happens when you run with a firearm to a scene of bloody havoc. In the chaos and pressure of the moment, you can shoot the wrong person. Or, by drawing your weapon, you can become the wrong person—a hero mistaken for a second gunman by another would-be hero with a gun. Bang, you’re dead. Or worse, bang bang bang bang bang: a firefight among several armed, confused, and innocent people in a crowd.

    Since, more often than not, none of these scenarios happens – and yet often enough armed people are able to stop violent assailants – the argument that William Saletan is making doesn’t hold much water.

    Why does Andrew get to get up? If he gets up, we’ll all get up, IT’LL BE ANARCHY!

  66. professionally I get involved in lots of police shootings.

    Best quote ever. Either you’re a lawyer on some side of gunfight prosecution. You’re Al Capone. Or you’re a drug-pusher in Compton. I’m not sure which, but I’m leaning toward Al Capone.

  67. Music is now a part of my preparedness.

    Now if I can kindly be pointed in the direction of music which stops tyrannical governments, I’ll be all set.

  68. Researcher says:

    I know this has mostly been an amusing discussion, but I think it is worth mentioning that a person would want to take into consideration whether there was any history of mood disorders in the family tree before making the decision to have firearms in the house. It will be much easier for a moody teenager to dispatch himself if he has easy access to a gun.

  69. #67– Rage against the Machine. You’re welcome.

  70. #65-#66″ What happens more often then not, is good people get shot by personal guns than bad guys. You may feel you can live above this, but it doesn’t appear society can.

  71. Eric Russell says:
  72. Bob – I was pointing to an obvious case of logic-overreach. If you want to argue gun control laws, I would suggest finding someone who has stated an opinion on the subject. You’ll notice I haven’t since its not an argument I feel like getting into today.

  73. Aaron B #13: US law gives the following definition for members of the militia:

    TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311 § 311. Militia: composition and classes

    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

    (b) The official classes of the militia are—

    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

    Researcher #68: In my opinion, any guns in the house should be securely locked any time they’re not securely being carried on a person. Your concern is an important one.

  74. Bah, how does one do a quote?

  75. #72: “none of these scenarios happens…”. That’s because the police are trained to enter buildings in uniforms __so they don’t start shooting each other.
    But you are right_ that’s another post.

  76. 60 – That Brady state-by-state rating is inaccurate and/or out of date in at least one important respect. Utah requires permits to carry concealed weapons. Arizona does not.

  77. buraianto (73),

    I was just being silly. For the first time, EVER.

    (Note that the meaning of the term “militia” at the time of the founding, and the meaning we should give the term “militia” today, have been crucial questions at the center of academic debates about the 2nd Amendment for years. I was just having fun with the term).

  78. Mommie Dearest says:

    Arizona does require concealed weapons permits.

    http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concealed_Weapons/

  79. a random John says:

    bbell,
    So Texas Mormons can’t follow the Church’s rules unless there is a sign at the door? That’s a lovely bit of apostasy there. I’ll have to remember that when I’m in the market for that vasectomy. I’ll simply get it done in Texas.

  80. I thought since Texas was an independent country that the church there had special rights as well.

    Heck, I live in Afghanistan right now and I think Texas is a downright scary place.

  81. it's a series of tubes says:
  82. I don’t think it’s the conceal carry laws in arizona that are the problem. I’m more worried about schizophrenic, pot smokers (legal now in AZ) that are carrying guns-

  83. CHI holders are very very safe. No safety worries that I see at all. I am not a CHI permit holder myself. Texas makes it kind of hard to get a permit compared to many other states.

  84. Actually, britt k, (67) music is as likely to stop an Abrams Tank as any firearm you could legally own.

    And trusting in Adam Greenwood in this instance is akin to trusting in the arm of flesh (or of steel, for that matter). That line of Winston Churchill’s came from a radio speech to the nation in May 1940, as the Germans were storming across France and the very survival of their island kingdom was at risk. He was calling Britain to join together in defense of their island kingdom, not to go buy a Colt .45 so they could plug the obnoxious neighbors.

    Speaking of trusting in the arms of flesh, I’m with the wife in the original post. Tell her to stick to her (metaphorical) guns. Quote 2 Nephi 4:34. Cite all the statistics that show that gun ownership all too often results in the wrong person being shot–either by accident or suicide.

    And, for crying out loud, the guy lives in Idaho. What’s he afraid of?

  85. “CHI” holders? Church Handbook of Instructions?

    Well, I guess that settles it.

  86. StillConfused says:

    I read above that guns should be kept locked when not on a person. I most definitely do NOT lock my gun away. I am afraid that the burglar in my home might not be patient enough to wait for me to go unlock my gun before protecting myself.

  87. #86: Most break-ins happen during the day so no one is in the house, and most burglars don’t carry weapons__if caught, it’s a much higher crime.

  88. StillConfused #86: I have young kids, so that’s where I’m coming from. And even if I felt like my children were taught well how to use guns safely, well, I knew growing up that matches were dangerous, but that didn’t stop me from playing with them. If it was just my wife and me I may feel differently.

    I don’t know of any quickly openable gun safes for long guns, but for handguns there are a number of safes which can be quickly opened. While not as fast as picking it off your nightstand it’s not too slow.

    Another benefit of locking your guns is that, when the burglars break in while you’re away, it’s harder for them to steal the guns. :P

  89. I’ve never considered gun ownership and the second ammendment about anything other than protecting yourself against your government. Knowledge that a gun is in the house might deter a criminal, but actually combatting a criminal with a gun scares me to bits. I have young people in the house too.

    We recently had our nephew over (a NYPD fella). He had his gun with him and hadn’t expected to come to our house but his flight was delayed. He had separated the ammo from the gun and kept both in a backpack he wore all the time. no shelf was high enough for him. He’s seen what guns do in small hands.

  90. #88: You are right_ if I break into your house when your not there, the first place I would head would be your nightstand and look for that $900, very easy to sell, hand gun.
    You are also wise concerning your kids. While working for an insurance company, had maybe four nightstand shootings, where the latch key boy would come home with his buddies, and just had to ‘show them’ the gun. Very sad outcomes.

  91. MikeInWeHo says:

    Keeping an unlocked firearm in the home is a remarkably irresponsible thing to do. It’s like driving without a seat belt because you want to be able to escape a burning car in a crash.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15949457

  92. bbell,

    Vasectomies are also very safe. Not dangerous at all.

    What’s you’re point? That an exception should be made for Texans because they’re so exceptional? Or that the Church is simply wrong on this one?

  93. I am just stating what goes on around here. If I was Bishop there would be no guns in the local ward buildings because the CHI says no dice. Its actually local cops in PH leadership who are encouraging non law enforcement people to carry inside local buildings. It still surprises me that everybody knows about it and there are no objections.

    I have a hard time streching the situation to the point that people who are most likely unaware of the comments in the CHI are in apostacy.

  94. One more reason that one shouldn’t listen to cops.

  95. StillConfused says:

    I know that many people don’t like unlocked guns around and I respect that. However, I grew up on a farm where there was a loaded gun by every door. I don’t ever remember being told not to play with them; we just knew better. Same with my children. When I told them that there was a gun in my room and for them not to play with it, their response was “Well duh mom. We’re not stupid.” Also, generally speaking, I do not allow little ones into my bedroom and certainly not into my nightstand. The gun is only one of the things in there that is not appropriate for little children.

    But by all means, if you have children that would play with guns, then keep them out of reach.

  96. Strange that LDS in Texas are apparently happy with this unorthodoxy of carrying weapons in Church. Are they by and large open to other departures from the CHI? ARJ is joking around about vasectomies but seriously, are the Texan LDS who are laissez faire on this provision also willing to abandon other items of instruction from the CHI, or is this just a selective disobedience thing.

  97. I actually don’t think anybody is aware of the notation in the CHI. I am not sure the Stake Presidency knows about all the guns in the buildings. I am sure they would shut it down. We actually have a bunch of “CHI nazis” running things all originally from Utah and Idaho. This is the only place where it gets overlooked that I have ever heard off. Discussions in stake meeetings come to a screeching halt when somebody gets out the CHI

  98. StillConfused (95)–I knew a kid who was accidentally shot and killed by one of his friends by a third party’s gun at the third party’s home. The third party had left the gun unlocked and loaded. A large percentage of pre-teen boys are fascinated by guns, play with toy guns, and don’t have much common sense when it comes to real guns. Your children might know how to respect guns, but chances are some of their friends don’t.

  99. I’ve never heard of a kid who got killed with a vibrator.

  100. bbell,

    Don’t worry, in my ward there is currently an uproar over the fact that YM 2nd C and the Scoutmaster are two different people, despite the CHI. Can you imagine?!?!

  101. Mark B., I guess you’ve never seen this:

  102. Some people think its scripture. I actually had a senior leader recently tell me that the CHI was the will of the Lord. I about fell over and I am pretty much orthodox about most things

  103. 96 – doesn’t every Mormon practice some degree of selective disobedience?

    95 – I’m pretty pro-gun. I have my CCW, as does my wife, and I do on occasion carry. HOWEVER, I couldn’t disagree with you more.

    Anyone who thinks that children (especially boys) can be trained to not handle a gun simply doesn’t understand boys.

    You really really need to read this study where they observed boys ages 8-12, all of whom had been taught that when they encounter a gun they need to:
    1) not touch it
    2) leave the room
    3) tell an adult

    They observed 29 groups of boys in a controlled environment where a gun, and two water pistols, were hidden. 21 groups found the gun, 16 groups handled it (76%), in 10 of the groups THE TRIGGER WAS PULLED (48%)
    None of the boys left the room, none of the boys told an adult.

    Your children might be geniuses, but they are probably not statistical anomolies. Even if they are, they probably have friends that are “below average”.

  104. #95: How did I know your gun was in your nightstand?
    If your kids play with other kids__they know it too.

  105. Anyone who thinks that children (especially boys) can be trained to not handle a gun simply doesn’t understand boys.

    Trudat.

  106. 101 – great movie. good pull.

  107. Researcher says:

    “Anyone who thinks that children (especially boys) can be trained to not handle a gun simply doesn’t understand boys.”

    Yep — you know what they say: one boy is a boy, two boys is half a boy, and three boys is no boy at all.

  108. Winston Churchill says:

    Mark B.,
    I see the specter of context rising across your comment.

  109. Ameteurs. Listen and learn.

    It’s not a Texan mormon thing, it’s a Mormon bit-by-the-prepping-bug thing. You can find LDS patriots, and prepping minded LDS folks in every state. I’ve actually watched people discuss whether it was important to paint your glock white to make it appropriate to carry in the temple. Nobody in that discussion was from Texas, or Idaho.

    The community of LDS 2nd amendment carry guns crowd, is deeply divided on the issue of carrying in church. Some say ‘the priesthood is more powerful than a pistol’ and leave it home. Some take careful note of the word “inappropriate”, and note it doesn’t say “illegal” or “against church counsel” or whatever. (It is actually illegal in Utah, but not other states.” Some just collect church shooting stories, carry in church, and will take whatever punishment the Lord sees fit to deal out. I know one guy from that last camp who became a BP, and did a 180 – he no longer carries in church, and advocates nobody else do it either.

    I had a bishop in Utah with a conceal-carry permit. Here in CO, my old EQP and his old 2nd counselor got carry permits.

    And really – this thread is waaay too sparse on an actual justification originally asked for. Read ‘em and weep, OP:

    “Not only should we have strong spiritual homes, but we should have strong temporal homes. We should avoid bondage by getting out of debt as soon as we can, pay as we go, and live within our incomes. There is wisdom in having on hand a year’s supply of food, clothing, fuel (if possible), and in being preparing to defend our families and our possessions and to take care of ourselves. I believe a man should prepare for the worst while working for the best.”
    Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 263-264.

    “As for this people fostering to themselves that the day has come for them to sell their guns and ammunition to their enemies, and sit down to sleep in peace, they will find themselves deceived and before they know, they will sleep until they are slain. They have got to carry weapons with them, to be ready to send their enemy to hell cross lots, whether they be Lamanites or mobs who may come to take their lives, or destroy their property. We must be prepared that they dare not come to us in a hostile manner without being assured they will meet a vigorous resistance and ten to one they will meet their grave.”

    Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, Vol 1, P . 171 – 172, July 31, 1853

    “Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” Luke 22:36

    ===
    “Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives.” Alma 48:14

    ===
    “And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.” Alma 48:16

    ===
    “And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.” Alma 43:47

    ===
    “We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded.” Doctrine and Covenants 134:11

    ==

    “We all believe that the Lord will fight our battles; but how? Will He do it while we are unconcerned and make no effort whatever for our own safety when an enemy is upon us? If we make no effort to guard our towns, our houses, our cities, our wives and children, will the Lord guard them for us? He will not; but if we pursue the opposite course and strive to help Him to accomplish His designs, then will He fight our battles. We are baptized for the remission of sins; but it would be quite as unreasonable to expect a remission of sins without baptism, as to expect the Lord to fight our battles without our taking every precaution to be prepared to defend ourselves. The Lord requires us to be quite as willing to fight our own battles as to have Him fight them for us. If we are not ready for an enemy when he comes upon us, we have not lived up to the requirements of Him who guides the ship of Zion, or who dictates the affairs of his kingdom.”

    Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 131, August 1-10, 1865.

    ===
    “There is one principle which is eternal; it is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of the household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has the right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive, but I anticipate no such extreme, but caution is the parent of safety.”

    Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six, 1843-44, p. 391.

    ===
    “…We feel to hope for the best, and are determined to prepare for the worst. And we want this to be your motto in common with us, ‘that we will never ground our arms untill we give them up by death–’ ‘Free trade and sailors rights, protection of persons and property, wives and families.’
    If a mob annoy you, defend yourselves to the very last, and if they fall upon you with a superior force, and if you think you are not able to compete with them, retreat to Nauvoo… act according to the emergency of the case but never give up your arms, but die first….”
    – Joseph Smith Jr. to his Uncle John, Nauvoo, June 17, 1844. Source: “The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith,” compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee, Deseret Book, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1984, p. 591

    ===

    “Peace be still, bury the hatchet and the sword, the sound of war is dreadful in my ear. [But] Any man who will not fight for his wife and children is a coward and a bastard.”
    – Joseph Smith Jr., journal entry, January 29, 1843. Source: “An American Prophet’s Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith,” edited by Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books, Inc. in association with Smith Research Associates, Salt Lake City, Utah,1989, p. 298

    ===

    “Constitution of the U S say, “Habeus Corpus shall not be denied. Deny me the right to H Corpus and I will fight with guns, sword, cannon behind and thunder [afore] till I am used up, like Killkenny Cats.”
    – Joseph Smith Jr., journal entry, June 30, 1843. Source:
    “An American Prophet’s Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith,” edited by Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books, Inc. in association with Smith Research Associates, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1989, p. 391
    ===

    “Let me say to all of you, Learn to be true and faithful; and, instead of laying out your means for fine bonnets and fine shoes, and for coffee and tea, my advice to you is, if you can five or ten dollars, go and buy a good blanket, a gun, or a sword. And we want you, ladies, to provide yourselves with weapons, and with all that is necessary, and be ready to defend yourselves; for you won’t always have your husbands to defend you.”
    Heber C. Kimbal, Journal of Discourses, Remarks, by President Heber C. Kimball, Delivered in the Bowery, Great Salt Lake City, Sunday Morning, August 16, 1857, 4: 374.)

  110. I’ve actually watched people discuss whether it was important to paint your glock white to make it appropriate to carry in the temple.

    I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been in the Celestial Room and seen a stranger eyeballing me and my wife. I know he’s thinking of jumping us and taking our white slippers. Luckily I’ve got my Beehive Armament issued 1911 compact – in celestial white – strapped to my back (but always above the garment), and he knows, ain’t no messin’ with me. Not without gettin’ a hallowed .45 caliber bullet between the eyes.

  111. Yeah, mockery and sarcasm doesn’t usually make much of a dent with that crowd. They’re not carrying because they figure other templegoers are bad guys. They’re carrying because they must travel to and from the temple, and that’s where the bad guys are. Plus, one or two stories over the years (including one a week or two ago) of bad guys trying to break in to the temple, or drive into it, or (in the recent case), tossing a bunch of rifles and shotguns through the fence and running at innocent people yelling stuff about birds.

    The painting it white discussion was more out of respect for the symbolism, not a claim of righteousness.

    And yeah, it makes for good snark, but we figure it is appropriate to think about justification in God’s eyes when thinking about employing the tool. And in my decade of paying attention to the issue, I’ve yet to meet the mormon who figures it’s appropriate to threaten or shoot at someone “messin’ with me”.

  112. MikeInWeHo says:

    Loudmouth is right. Bad guys are everywhere these days. My high school in rural Michigan started a TCC (Teen Concealed Carry) Program after this happened, and nobody was prepared to stop her:

  113. Mommie Dearest says:

    That’s hilarious, Mike. It kind of takes the edge off the creepiness of contemplating the need for armed bystanders at the temple. Also, I don’t think I’ve ever enjoyed a blog quite like Loudmouth’s. I notice none of the usual suspects want to get in her sights.

  114. MikeInWeHo says:

    I felt like a little levity was in order on this post.

  115. “I’ve actually watched people discuss whether it was important to paint your glock white to make it appropriate to carry in the temple. Nobody in that discussion was from Texas, or Idaho.”

    Holy bat guano! Sure they weren’t from Texas or Idaho–the only possible place of origin of someone having that discussion is Hell itself. Either that or maybe Sunnydale.

  116. MikeInWeHo says:

    Mommie Dearest is right: Loudmouth’s blog is AMAZING. Wow, just wow. Who ever said people on the far right are humorless?

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