With City Creek not open to Sabbath breakers, it was an effort to find lunch. Sunday pm coming up . . .
A banner is unfurled
Singing away the anti-Mormons
Apparently, hymn tempo is decided by the TV people. DFU conducting, Elder Perry up first. Look for his tie.
Elder Perry: The Power of Deliverance
“As we study and prepare and participate [in studying the Book of Mormon in Sunday School this year], may we be motivated to share our love of this special scripture with others not of our faith.”
“Prophecies foretelling the life and mission of Jesus Christ promise us the deliverance that He will provide. His Atonement and Resurrection provide all of us an escape from physical and spiritual death, bringing with it the blessings of eternal life.”
“In contrast to the beautifully designed beliefs for us in the Holy Scriptures, we find the opposing forces of secularism engaged in challenging the longstanding beliefs in the holy writings; writings which have given us guidance through these many centuries in defining the eternal values and standards for our conduct through life.”
“Neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon in and of themselves is sufficient. Bot are necessary for us to teach and learn about the full and complete doctrine of Christ.”
“We can be delivered from the ways of evil and wickedness by turning to the teachings of the Holy Scriptures. The Savior is the great deliverer for He delivers us from death and from sin. I testify to you that much of the Book of Mormon’s greatness stems from its harmony with the Holy Bible.”
***
Elder Ballard: That the Lost May Be Found
“Brothers and Sisters, we have available to us a tool even more remarkable than the best GPS. Everyone loses their way at some point, to some degree. It is through the promptings of the Holy Ghost that we can be brought safely back onto the right path; and it is the atoning sacrifice of the Savior that can return us home.”
“It is our homes and families that need reforming in this increasingly materialistic and secular world. A stunning example is the growing disregard for marriage here in the United States. Earlier this year the NYT reported that: “‘more than half of births to American women under 30 occur outside marriage.'”
“Equally worrisome is the ever growing gap between rich and poor and between those who strive to preserve family values and those who have given up on doing so.”
“Prosperity and education seem to be connected to a higher likelihood of having traditional families and values.”
[(In the United States?)
Cause and effect? Religious commitment = temporal success.]
“If we will devote ourselves to the cause [of our families] we will improve ever other aspect of our lives and will become, as a people and as a Church, an example and a beacon for all the peoples of the earth.”
“We may be relatively small in number, but as members of this Church we can reach across these widening gaps. We know the power of Christ-centered service that brings together God’s children regardless of their spiritual or economic status.”
“The Church is a mooring in this tempestuous sea, an anchor in the churning waters of change and division, and a beacon to those who value and seek righteousness.”
[Remember, quotes are inexact and sometimes abbreviated. Check transcripts later.]
“What can we do to avoid becoming lost? First, prioritize. Put everything you do outside the home in subjection to and in support of what happens inside your home. Organize your personal lives to provide time for prayer and scripture and family activity. Give your children responsibilities in the home that will teach them how to work.
Second, do things in the right order. Marriage first, and then family. Trust the power of God to guide you.
Third, husbands and wives, you should be equal partners in your marriage. Avoid unrighteous dominion in any form.
Finally, use the family resources of the church. In raising children, families can draw upon the help of the ward.”
***
Elder Haleck: Having the Vision to Do
“The Savior saw more in those humble fishermen whom he called to follow him than they saw in themselves; he saw a vision of who they could become. With that vision, these faithful and devoted disciples were able to do hard things as they traveled to preach the gospel and establish the Church after the Savior departed.”
“Before the Savior departed, understanding that we will need help, He said, ‘I will not leave you comfortless.’ The Holy Ghost can empower and motivate us to do the things that the Savior and our modern-day prophets and apostles teach.”
“We experience hard things in our lives that can sometimes diminish our vision and faith to do the things we should. …We must focus our vision on the Savior and His teachings. The Savior has a great vision of who we can become.
As we gain a vision of ourselves as the Savior sees us, and as we act on that vision, our lives will be blessed in unexpected ways.”
***
Elder Wilson: Only upon the Principles of Righteousness
“The Doctrine and Covenants explains that the right to use the priesthood in the home or elsewhere is directly connected with righteousness in our lives.”
“We lose our right to the Lord’s Spirit and to whatever authority we have from God when we exercise control over another person in an unrighteous manner. Compulsion builds resentment. It conveys mistrust, and it makes people feel incompetent. Learning opportunities are lost when controlling persons pridefully assume they have all the right answers for others.”
“Women, too, may exercise unrighteous dominion, though the scriptures identify the problem especially with men.”
“Unrighteous dominion is often accompanied by constant criticism and the withholding of approval or love.”
“If parents hold onto all decision making power and see it as their right, they severely limit the growth and development of their children. Our children are in our homes for a limited time. If we wait until they walk out the door to turn over to them the reins of their moral agency, we have waited too long.
Wise parents prepare their children to get along with out them.
Helping children exercise their agency properly requires teaching them how to pray and receive answers to their prayers. In raising our family, we decided that our most important goal would be to help our children establish their own connection to heaven.”
“An additional and tragic side effect of unrighteous dominion can be a loss of trust in God’s love. I have known some people who were subject to demanidng and controlling leaders or parents, and they have found it hard to feel the very love from their Heavenly Father that would sustain them and motivate them along the path of righteousness.”
If we are going to help those in our stewardships make the all-important link with heaven, we must be the kind of parent and leader described in Doctrine and Covenants Section 121. President Eyring: “‘Of all the help we can give to young people, the greatest will be to let them feel our confidence that they are on the path home to God and that they can make it.”‘
“Even if you’ve been mistreated in the past, I know the Lord wants you to come unto Him. All are loved. All are welcomed.”
***
Elder Evans: Was It Worth It?
“My counsel is the same that President Monson has given so many times from this very pulpit, ‘Never delay a prompting.'”
***
Elder Pieper: To Hold Sacred
“Choices related to the sacred and the secular are choices of relative priority, not exclusivity.”
***
Elder Andersen: What Thinks Christ of Me?
“In this turbulent environment, we rejoice in being disciples of Jesus Christ. Being a disciple in these days of destiny will be a badge of honor throughout the eternities.”
“Our journey of discipleship is not a dash arond the track, or even a lengthy marathon. It is a life-long migration toward a more celestial world.”
“Wherever you now find yourself on the road of discipleship, you are on the right road, the road toward eternal life. Together we can lift and strengthen one another in the great and important days ahead.”
“Discipleship is believing in Him in seasons of peace, and believing Him in seasons of difficulty, when our pain and fear are calmed only by the conviction that He loves us and keeps His promises.”
“Miracles are not always so immediate. But as we trust in the Savior, promised miracles will occur. Whether in this life or the next, all will be made right.”
***
President Monson: As We Close This Conference
“If there are disagreements or contentions among you, I urge you to settle them.”
By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog 
Too bad. In the old days the Tabernacle had several thousand sabbath breakers who mobbed the McDonald’s across the street. Progress!
My method for entertaining myself during this session will be to yell “April Fool’s!” after each speaker says amen.
Uchtdorf is 4/4 with the ties! Anyone have detail on his tie from the PH session?
Uchtdorf always bats 1000 no matter what session he’s in.
The opening of City Creek Center is expected to be a boost to Utah’s economy, and even on the one day a week the retail stores in the center are closed, people still milled around the center’s restaurants and Harmons grocery store.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=19730723&title=busy-sundays-at-city-creek-restaurants-help-state-tax-revenue&s_cid=queue-20
Look for Elder Perry’s tie.
Katie- here you go! http://www.lds.org/general-conference/watch/2012/04?lang=eng&vid=1540777238001&cid=7
Is the rumor true that you will be excommunicated forthwith following a session if you are a male Tab singer and you part your hair on the left side?
Katie, he wore a green and pink striped tie.
I’m noticing a pattern of male AM session organist and female PM session organist. Is it like that every conference?
Is it just me, or are the prayers getting longer?
I didn’t see Elder Zwick walk down the stairs – is there a secret tunnel they disappear into? Maybe my vision is just getting poorly.
Question: when will the Church determine that women are just as capable and worthy of offering prayers in General Conference as are men? Under what circumstances might that day arrive?
This is a serious question, and gets to one of the myriad of reasons for the long standing concern that we lose so many young women between the YW program and RS.
Prayers are opportunities for 70’s to strut their stuff in front of the Prophet hoping for a promotion.
7 & 9: Thanks! I’ll amend my previous comment: he’s 5/5!
Also, the guy who just prayed had some awesome little navy blue dots on his light purple tie.
Come unto Jesus sung at the right tempo! Hallelujah! It’s usually a funeral dirge at church!
The music is certainly getting slower!!
I thought it was that the junior chorister gets the afternoon session, and that the choristers work with different organists. Total speculation on my part, though.
I did see a male Tab singer with a left part. I guess we have to see if he is there in October.
Last line of Come Unto Jesus–ALTOS, represent!!
@14 – are you suggesting it’s not enough female participation to have 2-3 female talk about the role of the family and/or to children over the a two day, five session conference?
I didn’t like President Uchtdorf’s yellow tie yesterday.
There’s certainly a wide swath of Scandinavian ancestry in this choir
AnnieinKC, see here.
#10: It used to be Alexander Schreiner all the time, every time.
Perry comments on his tie for us… It’s fantiastic btw.
Has Elder Perry been reading these threads?
Fantiastic is wayyy better than fantastic.
Is his name Mr. Mac?
ROFL on the shout out to the tie-watchers!
Keep an eye on the Twitter feed for pics from conference:
https://twitter.com/#!/ByCommonConsent
I first commented on General Authority ties back in the glory days of the Bloggernacle (2007).
And L. Tom Perry fills in for Dieter F. Uchtdorf with the airplane reference!
He’s talking about Scott, the son of Elder Zwick who just gave the invocation.
The Mormon temple. Are you a Mormon?
All the City Creek restaurants should have been open…I wouldn’t know for sure whether they were or not today though. I skipped the crowds for the fast food oasis that is 4th South.
He’s not just reading–he’s also wearing–the threads.
Here’s a modest proposal:
Why don’t we stop pretending that we don’t spend money on Sundays? Every Mormon has flown on Sundays. Why not just make it okay to spend money every Sunday, even when you’re not traveling.
The Book of Mormon is the story of Deliverance.
Minus the creepy banjos, anyway.
“As we study and prepare and participate [in studying the Book of Mormon in Sunday School this year], may we be motivated to share our love of this special scripture with others not of our faith.”
“The book of muss-eye-uh”
Am Eagle,
That sounds rather like opening the floodgates to me.
I’d rather keep my artificial and superficial guard rails right where they are at, thank you.
No need to move them closer to the cliff.
Interestingly, we never get the story of the Jaredites. Just Zarahemla’s assertion that his people were descendants of Zedekiah… Orson Scott Card has a nice theory about that :D
42 – STRIKE THAT. Mulekites. Not Jaredites. D’oh.
L. Tom Perry is perhaps the most underrated Apostle.
“Prophecies foretelling the life and mission of Jesus Christ promise us the deliverance that He will provide. His Atonement and Resurrection provide all of us an escape from physical and spiritual death, bringing with it the blessings of eternal life.”
39 Am Eagle, I agree with 43 Seth. Things are fine the way they are – don’t judge me for sinning differently. ;)
As for downtown, we did the City Creek tour yesterday, but now it’s been a while since breakfast and there is a Wendy’s like 5 minutes away… No traffic down on this end of Salt Lake.
He’s certainly the most vigorous 89-year-old since GBH.
Interesting exegesis (wink) here – Alma’s people are delivered because they were “more peaceful and righteous”…
Where are the apostle ratings found anyway?
“In contrast to the beautifully designed beliefs for us in the Holy Scriptures, we find the opposing forces of secularism engaged in challenging the longstanding beliefs in the holy writings; writings which have given us guidance through these many centuries in defining the eternal values and standards for our conduct through life.”
Casey #20–yes for obvious reasons.
Jonathan #23–Cynthia’s post is on the mark! Mormon women may be deemed incredible, but clearly within institutional bounds.
I am hopeful the day will come–its surely within the realm of the church’s self-interest to do so.
#53: Some of us look at pronunciations for work—and find L. Tom Perry’s pronunciations a treasure that should be loved.
Wow, he is getting passionate.
What, no one’s made ratemyapostle.com yet?
“Neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon in and of themselves is sufficient. Both are necessary for us to teach and learn about the full and complete doctrine of Christ.”
He is big on deliverance.
Correct me if I’m wrong… but didn’t non-General Authorities give talks in Conference in the 1980s?
@AnnienKC – for what it’s worth I’m with you.
While we’re on pronunciation, allow me to digress a little: is there any hope for a restoration of the only true and living pronunciation of the word “contrite?” Say it three times: conTRITE, not CONtrite.
Nice use of the Book of Mormon to illuminate the Bible. Very FARMS-ian.
I am interested in the positions that aren’t in the “traditional/Biblical” values / “secular” values dichotomy.
And yay, rabbinic-style filling in the gaps of the Abraham story.
“We can be delivered from the ways of evil and wickedness by turning to the teachings of the Holy Scriptures. The Savior is the great deliverer for He delivers us from death and from sin. I testify to you that much of the Book of Mormon’s greatness stems from its harmony with the Holy Bible.”
Lot had many problems. Ha! Particularly when his daughters made him drunk and . . . well, let’s just say that I am now a little regretful for Elder Perry bringing up Lot!
A little off-topic, but does anyone remember when they stopped showing quotations and scriptures on the screen when the speaker read them?
The Book of Mormon: “It’s a great book”, in great part because of its harmony with the Bible.
Ballard is rocking the bipartisan power tie!
I think Elder Ballard is the most underrated apostle…
Do men part your hair on a side based on if you are left-handed or right-handed.
He has a cell phone—that’s gotta be a pretty closely-guarded phone number.
Comparing GPS to a Liahona is spot on… it’s almost too perfect of an analogy.
Tool even more remarkable than GPS…. the Bloggernacle
“Brothers and Sisters, we have available to us a tool even more remarkable than the best GPS. Everyone loses their way at some point, to some degree. It is through the promptings of the Holy Ghost that we can be brought safely back onto the right path; and it is the atoning sacrifice of the Savior that can return us home.”
#57: Lowell Bennion delivered a talk in GC.
I knew the Liahona was a smart phone!
Haha, GPS makes outdated traditionally-gendered marital quibbles. XD
Elder Ballard: iPhone or Android?
So who would be the most overrated apostle? The most “rated” ones seem to be Bednar, Holland, and Uchtdorf in my estimation.
Reminds me of that joke with the punchline “Because not one of them will ever stop to ask for directions.”
Elder Ballard is playing it safe with his tie selection. When I was a missionary, they told us that when picking out ties, we should think about what a General Authority would wear. (This was in 1997.)
#63: interesting, Katie. For a while there they were really going gung-ho on the multimedia stuff during talks. Seems like they have toned it way down.
“It is our homes and families that need reforming in this increasingly materialistic and secular world. A stunning example is the growing disregard for marriage here in the United States. Earlier this year the NYT reported that: ‘more than half of births to American women under 30 occur outside marriage.'”
“Today we live in a time when much of this world has lost its way.” I fear that many in the church are going to remember that as “Today we live in a time when this world has lost its way”, and there’s an important difference.
All the Apostles have cell phones, and talk to each other several times a day.
Glenn Beck: Get ready to have your head explode!!
“Equally worrisome is the ever growing gap between rich and poor and between those who strive to preserve family values and those who have given up on doing so.”
Good morning, my friends!
Is he referring to Charles Murray’s new book?
“Prosperity and education seem to be connected to a higher likelihood of having traditional families and values.”
(In the United States?)
Cause and effect? Religious commitment = temporal success.
@ Annie in Kansas City
Elder Holland’s son Matt is president of Utah Valley University. I remember recently reading that he spoke in General Conference when he was in high school.
Prosperity gospel?!?
Glad he is pro-marriage. Hopefully they are backing off of the prop 8 type stuff
I like that… commitment is the cause, everything else is the effect. Anyone grab the exact quote?
The interesting question would be to ask *why* people aren’t getting married.
I’ll need to examine the logic of this talk once it comes out.
A member of the young men general presidency has already spoken this conference. My second-favorite address last conference was by a member of the Sunday school general presidency.
“If we will devote ourselves to the cause [of our families] we will improve ever other aspect of our lives and will become, as a people and as a Church, an example and a beacon for all the peoples of the earth.”
Less government and fewer costly safety nets are needed…
So welfare states are caused by deteriorating families…?
“I’m rich not because I was lucky enough to be born in America to a middle class family. It is because I am super righteous.”
#90
I’d say gay marriage is just one more step in the general contempt of the idea of marriage.
The only reason gay marriage arguments work at all is because marriage is such a pathetic mess in our society, that arguments like “well whats the harm in letting gays in on it?” actually work.
#79: Cynthia, it seems like all they do now is show pictures of their grandkids. I wonder if the change coincided with the instruction for speakers to not ask people to pull out their scriptures.
Also: I’m having a hard time pulling anything positive (to me) out of Ballard’s talk. Help?
“We may be relatively small in number, but as members of this Church we can reach across these widening gaps. We know the power of Christ-centered service that brings together God’s children regardless of their spiritual or economic status.”
It does really seem to be Charles Murray’s book. For those unfamiliar, it’s popped up a bunch recently.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/books/review/charles-murray-examines-the-white-working-class-in-coming-apart.html?pagewanted=all
92– Ivassume he is speaking more to US stats. However, good friend in Europe (Switzerland).assures me that if he marries and then divorces, the woman has legal rights to HALF his income as long as she lives. He has said he will never marry. With 50%+ marriages end in divorce, who can blame him?
“The Church is a mooring in this tempestuous sea, an anchor in the churning waters of change and division, and a beacon to those who value and seek righteousness.”
It used to be that right was called right, until modernity came along.
Charles Murray’s book has considerable problems with it, parenthetically.
100 Katie – I’m hearing a lot of prosperity gospel, but we can just pretend he’s talking about treasures in heaven. That’s good stuff. That’s what I’m doing.
“The church is a tool.”
I would suggest that many members of the church are also tools.
Yeah wish I could help you there, Katie. I am mostly staying silent on this one, and waiting for the Ensign copy to see if I’m misunderstanding or something. :-/
Seth, can we pleeeeeeeease not get stuck in a big gay marriage tangent? I will totally share my awesome guacamole recipe with all of you if we can make it to the end of this session with no more of that.
Interesting that he identified the H.G. as the one who turns the hearts of the fathers to the children, etc.
#106 for the win!!
Cynthia, I have nothing more to say on that subject.
Those married in the temple have better marriages, and are better off temporally. I’m curious if i see the causation here the same as he sees it.
EmmaNadine: I suspect that he’s relying on the national marriage study at the University of Virginia, which found strong associations between income, education, and marriage and family formation
“It used to be that right was called right, until modernity came along.”
Then came post-modernity and asked, what do you mean by “called”?
#100 Charles Murray was on the Stephen Colbert Show recently. Murray maintained that his book is about while people and only while people.
Lolz, 106.
I am FULLY in support of the counsel we just received to teach our kids the value of work. I am about to teach my kids the value of cleaning this disaster of a living room.
This is the closest we’ve gotten to “everybody get married right away”, which it feels like we’ve had over and over and over the past few conferences.
WHITE people, not while people. My apologies for my typoitis!
Nate: sounds like a pretty poor study.
Husbands, preside equally, like that really cool boss who wears flip-flops and sometimes lets you leave early. That’s totally what we’re about, man.
Good point that the LDS stance is that true family cannot really exist without marriage first. That reinforces the importance of the marriage statistics quoted earlier, which many would not say mean much (“People can be families without marriage.”).
… and I thought he was going to talk about the responsibility of women to court men. Nope, responsibility to not work …
Katie, #98: I was commenting on that earlier. This conference the only visual aids I recall seeing we’re during Elder Rasband’s talk (grand kids) and a family group photo yesterday. It wasn’t long ago we read along with quotes, and even more recently video vignettes seemed en vogue.
Elder Perry is not afraid to take on some touchy issues.
Did Ballard just take a stab at working Mom’s. Crap. I thought we were past this!!
I mean Ballard.
So women who never had a chance to get married are inherently less fulfilled when they get older? Ouch!
57 – Long long ago, Conference was a lot longer and there were a lot fewer GAs, so other people got the chance to talk. And in those longago days, all prayers were offered by SPs. And they were long then, too: my mother’s favorite comment was, “He feels sorry he wasn’t asked to speak.”
I struggle with the “raising a family = fulfillment”. I know I should feel that way, and I love my kids, but I guess I just feel so much BETTER at my outside-the-home job. It’s just never been wonder and primary songs and “specialness” in our house.
[Remember, quotes are inexact and sometimes abbreviated. Check transcripts later.]
“What can we do to avoid becoming lost? First, prioritize. Put everything you do outside the home in subjection to and in support of what happens inside your home. Organize your personal lives to provide time for prayer and scripture and family activity. Give your children responsibilities in the home that will teach them how to work.
Second, do things in the right order. Marriage first, and then family. Trust the power of God to guide you.
Third, husbands and wives, you should be equal partners in your marriage. Avoid unrighteous dominion in any form.
Finally, use the family resources of the church. In raising children, families can draw upon the help of the ward.”
I hate that false dichotomy that just because a young man is single, he doesn’t want to get married, where as women are blameless. I am a single 28 year old and I want to get married. I just have not been able to find a girl who wants to marry me.
(steps of soap box)
I really liked Elder Perry’s talk, and this talk did have some good parts.
And it is (mainly) men’s fault if women don’t get married.
I love that Elder Ballard did NOT say to young women, “Choose family instead of career,” but instead, “Do not choose career instead of family.”
#126: In the old GCs i’ve listened to (every conference in years even with 5 since 1940, plus a handful of others), the longest prayer i’ve timed was actually delivered by a GA—David O. McKay delivered a nearly-8-minute prayer to open the solemn assembly sustaining George Albert Smith.
Wonder what the “O” stands for??
Another general authority with a non-member father!
Elder Haleck speaks great English for an American Samoan.
“The Savior saw more in those humble fishermen whom he called to follow him than they saw in themselves; he saw a vision of who they could become. With that vision, these faithful and devoted disciples were able to do hard things as they traveled to preach the gospel and establish the Church after the Savior departed.”
BHodges: Why do you say that? The National Marriage Project at UVa is one of the premier groups working on the social science of marriage in the U.S. FWIW, while I think that there are all sorts of difficulties in untangling causation, I don’t think that there is much serious debate regarding the link between marriage and income.
“The Church is the scaffolding for building eternal families.”
I honestly think that quote is backwards.
#127: It’s pretty well documented that having children makes one less happy overall (though the highs can be higher). I wish there’d be a nod to that in GC addresses about the glories of families.
#135: He came to the US as a child.
In an attempt to follow Elder Christofferson’s counsel from the morning session: “Not every statement made by a church leader past or present represents doctrine.” The HG just told me that what Elder Ballard said is not doctrine, but friendly counsel.
“Vision” being used in the mission-statement sense, not the heavenly-manifestation sense.
@ loathing
Link?
“Before the Savior departed, understanding that we will need help, He said, “I will not leave you comfortless.” The Holy Ghost can empower and motivate us to do the things that the Savior and our modern-day prophets and apostles teach.”
Brian, I feel for you. I was 31 when I married. Just because others can see you haven’t crossed the goal line in this department doesn’t mean they can see you running down the field, toward that goal line.
The O stands for Otto.
Brooke (105) and Cynthia (107), I really don’t know what to make of it.
Take comfort, older singles: If you do get married, the social pressure immediately switches to “when are you going to have kids?” and “how many kids are you going to have?”
“The O stands for Otto.”
I see a new Utah baby name trend coming on!
“We experience hard things in our lives that can sometimes diminish our vision and faith to do the things we should. …We must focus our vision on the Savior and His teachings. The Savior has a great vision of who we can become.
As we gain a vision of ourselves as the Savior sees us, and as we act on that vision, our lives will be blessed in unexpected ways.”
Nate: We don’t need to bother with all the untangling of causation, apparently. If you have good values you’ll be blessed, according to Elder Ballard. We know, he says, the values precede the goodness, and by that, I mean the wealth.
(Also, wasn’t that the study that focused specifically on white people?)
If you don’t see an inherently conservative” bias in that study, then I don’t really know what else to say, Nate.
Ballard’s got cause and effect wrong. According to social science research (see, e.g., here), those who prioritize the completion of education and the achievement of emotional maturity and financial stability before family formation are not only more likely to marry, but more likely to remain married. It’s not that their worldview is grounded in religious values; it is grounded in responsibility. This demographic likewise sees sexuality in terms of responsibility rather than morality. Whereas traditionalists see marriage as an institution that unifies sex and family formation (with abstinence being the norm until marriage), modernists tend to reject abstinence, instead advocating responsible sexuality. Though sexually active before marriage, they typically delay childbearing until after marriage (which takes place at a later age).
I’m not going to attempt to suggest any gospel implications for these data. I’m simply saying that Ballard is most likely misinterpreting the data.
139– so it ain’t just me being a Bad Mormon Mom?? ;) Thats sort of a relief to hear. I find that my “heartwarming” moments mostly when I am out of the room and the kids are interacting with each other. I mean, it’s not horrible– just not quite the bill of good we get sold.
loathing: The happiness research is actually very mushy. It’s very difficult come up with ways of measuring happiness in ways that allow interpersonal comparisons of happiness. Also, it is not clear that current happiness is a good predictor of life-cycle happiness, etc. FWIW, there are lots of sermons that say something like, “Being a parent is hard, but it is worth it.”
I am having a really hard time with “the doctrine of the family.” I am glad to hear this talk, which lauds a more non-traditional family. Some families do not look like others, but can still be strong and faithful.
@john, thanks
I like Elder Haleck’s talk. It seems like the GA’s have been rather open and personal this conference. There has been so much for me this conference. I think I’ll be doing lots of study of these talks.
I never know what to do when a folk etymology or modern definition takes a central role in a talk.
“Where there is no vision, the people perish” – rendered in the NIV as “Where there is no revelation, people cast off restraint.”
It’s not the “mental visualization of a potential future” in the scriptures. Not that it renders moot his point (“looking forward to” is a theme in the BoM, of course), but it’s just something that gets me sometimes.
Lori, what did Elder Ballard say that was wrong?
@129: Brian, come to Boston. There is basically a ratio of 4 single LDS girls for every 1 single LDS guy. The girls are growing increasingly desperate by the week. You’re welcome.
Remember: The true measure of your devotion to conference comes when you know that the next three speakers are all Seventies.
Agreed, Brian. I too have noticed that it seems there has been a theme of real forthcomingness about personal limitations yesterday and today.
Hope of Israel! Always a great congregation hymn.
#143: Did you mean a link for studies that children make parents unhappy?
There’s lots, and hopefully author-date references are enough to let you Google Scholar them: Alesina et al. 2004; Clark & Oswald 2002; Di Tella et al. 2003; Glenn & McLanahan 1981; Twenge et al. 2003. And there’s more—lots more.
A related and fascinating question is why are people in first-world nations having less children? I’m still not sure if I know the answer.
151 – Unfortunately, over 90% of American Mormons are white, so it might actually hold true in our little confessional population segment.
Note that Ballard did not mention the correlation between education, marriage, income, and later family formation. Early marriage and childbearing tend to be associated with less education, lower incomes, and less successful marriages.
“… marshalled in the ranks of sin… ”
… which are just different sins from the ones I hope you’ll not judge me for…
Hope of Israel was one of the most sung songs when I was in Seminary 25 years ago. No idea why.
Looks like a full house at the Conference Center. Wasn’t there a session recently with empty seats?
Harry Potter. Sorry, had to ay it.
Can everybody please use comment numbers AND names? My numbers seem to be different than everyone else’s.
Also, cool tie.
BHodges: The NMP doesn’t restrict the study by race. One could tell all sorts of conservative stories based on the data, I suppose, although there is a lot in the NMP data that doesn’t support this. It strikes me as rather shockingly knee-jerk to assert that the study is problematic because it finds a major correlation based on income. Dude, there are very few social facts that aren’t powerfully correlated with income.
159: Heyyy sister. Brian, you should totally hook up with her!
A Mormon named “Larry?” With cool glasses?
Elder Wilson, admitting to a big, big mistake…
“The Doctrine and Covenants explains that the right to use the priesthood in the home or elsewhere is directly connected with righteousness in our lives.”
I’m hoping that these traditional gendered jokes are subverted.
Doh! Our cable company just cut the GC feed.
This guy seems more Jewish than Mormon, and that’s a compliment.
“We lose our right to the Lord’s Spirit and to whatever authority we have from God when we exercise control over another person in an unrighteous manner. Compulsion builds resentment. It conveys mistrust, and it makes people feel incompetent. Learning opportunities are lost when controlling persons pridefully assume they have all the right answers for others.”
Nate, you said it all by saying “One could tell all sorts of conservative stories based on the data,” I completely agree, and we just witnessed an example of that.
“Women, too, may exercise unrighteous dominion, though the scriptures identify the problem especially with men.”
“We cannot simply force others to do the right thing.”
“Unrighteous dominion is often accompanied by constant criticism and the withholding of approval or love.”
I predict Elder Wilson’s talk will be a favorite of my teenagers.
#158- It’s fairly well documented in this thread. He tried to prove causation between wealth and living righteously. I fundamentally disagree that the two are correlated. I know many people who live very righteous, Christian lives, but also live in poverty. I also feel that the reason the unwed pregnancy rate is higher in poor areas is more highly correlated to lack of education and limited access to birth control rather than the reasons Ballard cited. I also feel that having a career and being a mother can be equally fulfilling. I should know- I do both, and frankly feel equally fulfilled in both of my roles.
Amen to this part of the sermon. Helicopter parents are the death knell
It has been forever since I’ve heard someone talk about unrighteous dominion, and focus it on men.
Nice! No crippling over-protective, hyper-controlling parenting.
The scriptures identify unrighteous dominion as a largely male problem? I thought that part of D&C sec. 121 was using a generic “men”, myself.
“Women, too, may exercise unrighteous dominion, though the scriptures identify the problem especially with men.”
I suspect that has more to do with breadth of dominion rather than the righteousness of those involved.
Late to the party…
38: Banjos aren’t creepy. It’s the banjo players you have to worry about.
“Wise parents prepare their children to get along without them.”
His glasses are cool. Look great on him. “Wise parents prepare their children to get along without them.” I like.
I thought he was going to add that his wife was asian, that’s why he was worried on that trip.
“Wouldn’t you know it…”
He gives a nod to how well-worn this trope is…
My kids, do not listen:
“If parents hold onto all decision making power and see it as their right, they severely limit the growth and development of their children. Our children are in our homes for a limited time. If we wait until they walk out the door to turn over to them the reins of their moral agency, we have waited too long.
Wise parents prepare their children to get along with out them.
Helping children exercise their agency properly requires teaching them how to pray and receive answers to their prayers. In raising our family, we decided that our most important goal would be to help our children establish their own connection to heaven.”
192 – Basically, the objective of parenthood is self-obsoletion.
This guy is obviously not the same Larry Wilson who played at the U and then was a Hall of Fame defensive back for the St. Louis Cardinals. But I wish he was. Of course, it would make for an interesting obbligato on the topic of his talk.
I’m bored with stories of kids playing or not playing in sports events on Sundays. Sorry.
Social scientist Jessie Barnard argued in 1972 that there are two marriages in any marriage: his marriage and her marriage. And that his marriage is qualitatively better (more prone to his happiness) than hers (in terms of happiness). When I would mention this in Relief Society meetings, in the 70s and 80s, Barnard’s points were instantly recognizable. That said, things may have changed some in the decades since that time.
@laura, thanks for the idea. I’ve been thinking of moving to Boston for a few years.
Another purple tie. Is it true that missionaries are forbidden to wear purple ties?
Loathing – but D&C 121 is about priesthood, which is (for now) an exclusively male thing.
#190: Agreed, Casey.
Don’t join a team if it plays on Sunday, instead of letting the team down when the game arrives.
197–better pray for absolution for that ghastly “obsoletion.”
“when we exercise control over another person in an unrighteous manner.” Implying that one can exercise control over another person in a righteous manner? That could be a very slippery slope.
I remember a woman proudly declaring that she had made breakfast for her children every day of their lives until they went on their missions… like that was a good thing. Those kids had NO life skills at all. Very sad
“An additional and tragic side effect of unrighteous dominion can be a loss of trust in God’s love. I have known some people who were subject to demanidng and controlling leaders or parents, and they have found it hard to feel the very love from their Heavenly Father that would sustain them and motivate them along the path of righteousness.”
I was never in athletics, but I have participated in plenty of events that took place on Sundays (usually weekend-long or week-long programs). I never once felt guilty for participating in something that helped me grow and improve because I missed church meetings on Sunday a few times a year. Maybe the guilt is only when playing sports?
I’m glad he told a wrong choice type of story. Usually we “hide those under a bushel” due to that lack of light.
My parents did the same thing to me, making me make my own decisions as a teenager… I actually hated it, but it’s so much easier now.
“If we are going to help those in our stewardships make the all-important link with heaven, we must be the kind of parent and leader described in Doctrine and Covenants Section 121. President Eyring: “‘Of all the help we can give to young people, the greatest will be to let them feel our confidence that they are on the path home to God and that they can make it.”‘
#202: We were allowed purple ties in my German/Austrian mission in the early 90s.
What about Mitt Romney participating in debates on Sundays?
“the greatest will be to let them feel our confidence that they are on the path”
I likes.
“Even if you’ve been mistreated in the past, I know the Lord wants you to come unto Him. All are loved. All are welcomed.”
#205: That’s not always possible—schedules aren’t always figured out before the season begins for recreational league teams, for example.
loathing – What kind of work do you do? (I studied linguistics in college and you’ve piqued my curiosity.)
He sounds a bit like David Sedaris.
having heard the rest of his talk it is pretty clear that my inference is perhaps unjustified. :)
197: “Basically, the objective of parenthood is self-obsoletion.”
Is this an Eternal Principle?
Is this guy a leprechaun?
#209: That is a very important quote. Something you see again and again and again and again in the bloggernacle, and, sadly, in the ex-mo boards. Glad he addressed that.
When we veer toward prosperity gospel, I can’t help but recall the words of D.F. Uchtdorf: “It is unworthy of us as Christians to blame those who suffer for their suffering.”
#218: I’m a sociolinguist—sociophonetics and Labovian variationism, if you’re familiar with the subfield.
I have no problem with sports on sundays (though I don’t go to sports stuff on any day of the week). That is not bad in my world. But then again, I controlled jets on Sundays for years and as a child, the only time I went to a restaurant was after stake conference twice a year.
real letters provide something tangible that can be held, thought about, and cherished.
Steve Young vowed never to play on Sunday until he was offered a multimillion dollar contract…Things changed
221 – it’s an interesting question, with interesting implications! :D
Also, I just noticed that Nephi talks about *persuading* children to believe in Christ. I wonder how often we conceive of it as persuasion of children instead of merely informing them.
What about Emergency Room physicians who work Sunday shifts?
I treasure our looseleaf binders full of e-mails from our son while on his mission. Those letters are just as real as anything handwritten.
John, are you implying he made the wrong choice?
Every one of us has the responsibility to share the gospel. Question: How is this different from the responsibility to share the gospel that the book of Doctrine and Covenants says is inherent in holding the Melchizedek priesthood?
41: Does spending money on Sundays include handing your tithing envelope to the Bishop after Sacrament Meeting?
Or is it only spent when the check clears the bank?
Steve Young played on Sunday when it became his career and livelihood – just like cops, firefighters and those other Sunday jobs.
Do we have to judge other athletes who sin differently than us?
Nice, American Eagle (214).
“Naturally and normally” sharing the gospel with people we love.
Haha, nice one #236.
#236: Oooh—well-played, ma’am, very well-played.
Jeremy – Is Uchtdorf the only member of the 12 that has ever been poor? Like, really poor?
Prosperity gospel? Just three words: City Creek Center.
Alpine German-Speaking Mission represent!
(My old mission, since renamed.)
What is the “Alpine German Speaking Mission”?
225: I plan on visiting Labovia on summer vacation at some point in time.
241 – He’s defintely the only one of the twelve to have been a war refugee.
#224 Jeremy- That Uchtdorf quote is beautiful. Thank you for restoring some faith for me today. Many seemingly contradictory things are said from the Lord’s representatives over time. I love that we have the gift of the HG to help us know what is true.
Uchtdorf, as a pilot, would have had to work on Sundays, right?
224– agreed. Also veers into the RS/Priesthood lessons from last Sunday in our Ward (Elder Cook’s “Songs They Could Not Sing”). I got to teach RS, and definitely enjoyed making plugs for a less-judgemental attitudes– the rain falls on the righteous, just as on the wicked.
241 – DW, I believe Oaks was in poverty as a child. His father died and his mother ended up supporting them.
“”My counsel is the same that President Monson has given so many times from this very pulpit, ‘Never delay a prompting.'”
244. It’s where the Alpinos live.
#244: The Alpine German-Speaking Mission is what used to be the Germany Munich, Austria Vienna, and Switzerland Zurich Missions.
“natural and normal way” I can pull off natural, but normal… not gonna happen
Obviously a time delay here – RJH had the quote up a moment before I heard him say it.
@ Mark N
I googled it. It looks like they’re collapsing missions in western Europe, and introducing a new naming convention.
Elder Paul Pieper – Peter’s brother! (Sorry! Cheap joke, but couldn’t help myself)
I mentioned to my wife that I’m hungry and suggested that we heat up some soup. She responded, “I want Wendy’s”. I feel that my priesthood does not give me authority to forbid her and that I must allow her to make this mistake. In fact, I might go along and give her the chance to repent by feeding her fellow man.
Can’t reason or intuition be the result of spiritual inspiration?
We can confuse the Spirit with *reason* and/or intuition. Interesting.
The number of rimshot/groaner jokes in this thread is increasing as the afternoon wears on.
Cat sez: saykred iz moar better
Lost the audio for a few seconds again. It’s only the second or third time today, though.
When was the last time a news-breaking bombshell was dropped during General Conference? When they announced the Nauvoo temple being rebuilt?
“The opposite of sacred is profane, or secular.” Um, i don’t think that actually means what you think it means.
“Choices related to the sacred and the secular are choices of relative priority, not exclusivity.”
I’ve always thought that “reason” was another avenue through which God speaks to His children, because some of those children wouldn’t know how to handle a burning in the breast or a burning bush.
I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to give the “Bueller? Bueller?” award to this talk.
#264: I think that the rebuilding of the Provo Tabernacle counts, though it wasn’t as big a deal as Nauvoo.
I’m not sure profane and secular are synonyms, but sacred and profane are a legitimate pair.
I’d have to say when the bombing started in Afghanistan. KSL even cut away for the NBC feed
Nice to bring back the etymological sacred/secular dichotomy (bringing in the root of “secular” as “mundane” or “worldly” – in the Spanish Bible, for instance, “the end of the world” is rendered “el fin del *siglo*”).
“The choice of the sacred over the secular is not an issue of exclusivity, but of priority.”
Give it time, #264 and 269. Monson could still wrap it up by declaring the time to start building handcarts.
Yes, this is also a dichotomy that I tire of. Secular learning has greatly enhanced my sacred learning. They do not have to be in opposition to each other.
@ John Taber
I meant an announcement made in General Conference.
And now we get back to “secular” meaning “non-religious”…
264: Rome Temple! But yeah, probably not as big a deal…
That was made in General Conference, for those of us on the satellite feed. President Hinckley came to the pulpit, shaking a bit, and said “I have just been handed a note . . . “
275 – Oh, let me edit that. I didn’t mean “worldly” as in “Babylon” or “sinful” but rather “pertaining to this place where we live out or lives,” without moral content.
(too many to cite) Sabbath activities luckily are in the category of individual decision-making, and each of us has made his/her own choices. Neither my children nor I did sports, but music! We all played and/or sang in concerts on Sundays multiple times. Also weekend training sessions took us out of church on several occasions a year. Finally, I took Sierra Club training in Mountaineering and in trip leadership, all of which required Sunday participation.
I paid a price for that last, though. The bishop noticed, and decided I needed to use the training in the Scouting program. Looked like a heavy penalty at the beginning, but it was one of the most choice experiences of my life. Do I regret all those Sunday activities or others? Not at all.
#270 et seq.: Yeah, i was objecting to the contrast between sacred and secular, not between sacred and profane.
We haven’t had a buzz-worthy talk since “Women Who Know” in 2007.
Purple is the tie theme of the day.
At first I was a little worried that we were getting a “Mormons are Christians” talk, but I like that Anderson instead used his anecdote to pivot toward personal righteousness.
Michael H. (281) – I was referring the talk, not so much your comments on it.
“In this turbulent environment, we rejoice in being disciples of Jesus Christ. Being a disciple in these days of destiny will be a badge of honor throughout the eternities.”
Poll: moral fiber, or moral fibre? I think it works better as fibre, even in an American context.
I never understood why people thought the Rome Temple was such a jaw-dropping Big Deal. Especially given that it came in the same breath as an announcement of a temple in the Jackson County area.
Secular is playing sports or flying airplanes on Sunday…
Digging Anderson’s solid blue tie.
Stupid IProvo just went out. Hope I didnt miss too much
He’s giving an interesting wrap-up, making sure to tie stuff in to previous speakers’ themes.
“Our journey of discipleship is not a dash arond the track, or even a lengthy marathon. It is a life-long migration toward a more celestial world.”
“Discipleship is not a competition.” Great quote.
“”Wherever you now find yourself on the road of discipleship, you are on the right road, the road toward eternal life. Together we can lift and strengthen one another in the great and important days ahead.”
My husband, being a preparedness expert, has both the TV going and an internet stream over his iPhone… which has a delay. SO I am hearing everything twice. Very annoying
Anyone grab the exact text of the life long migration line? I like that metaphor.
“Being a disciple in these days of destiny will be a badge of honor throughout eternity.”
Did he really just go there? Really?
I think much secular truth is indeed very sacred. I am hearing here the same false dichotomy as “eternal truth vs secular truth” that I’ve heard most of my life. Truth is truth, and all truth is eternal. And much of my secular learning has helped me feel closer to God and feel incredible awe of His work and power and love for us.
And RJH answers before I even ask.
Living faithfully today is a badge of honor to be worn through the entities. However, please note, a hush will NOT fall upon people when we tell them that in heaven.
EmmaNadine,
“Our journey of discipleship is not a dash arond the track, or even a lengthy marathon. It is a life-long migration toward a more celestial world.”
Time delay!
302, eternities. Stupid auto correct.
I like the connection that the migration metaphor can make with LDS pioneer history.
“Discipleship is believing in Him in seasons of peace, and believing Him in seasons of difficulty, when our pain and fear are calmed only by the conviction that He loves us and keeps His promises.”
The parable of the Mylar balloon.
From what i know of Pres. Monson (secondhand, but from people who know him well), i’m betting that he’s squirming uncomfortably right now—he’s not big into hagiography directed his way.
How do you spell Solene? What a lovely sounding name.
My gosh, this story is awful. :’-(
RJH, I read your quotes before I hear them spoken. How are things in the future?
This story is so cheesy! ANd I am lactose intolerant!
my vision of the afterlife shows everyone wearing a number of badges of honor, in infinite variety.
Oh, I thought the kids were actually dead. I guess not so awful.
“Miracles are not always so immediate. But as we trust in the Savior, promised miracles will occur. Whether in this life or the next, all will be made right.”
Ganchy, Gansly, and Angie… almost variations on a theme.
#300: “There is no religion higher than the truth”
I don’t see this as cheesy. The telling was a bit melodramatic, but the subject may well have merited it.
Right, Mommie. I am interpreting that line in terms of everybody having badges of honor and mutually honored for what they did, in whatever context they were in. Honor in the eternities is not some zero-sum game where living in our time being honorable means living in other times was less so.
Left Field,
I post them once they are spoken IN THE PRESENT. How is the past?
and when in the next life they hear you were here during Gordon B. Hinckley’s tenure, they will bow down in respect.
Badges of honor seems to fly in the face of the parable of the 12 workers. It isn’t a competition.
@ Jacob Givens
What do you mean?
I love that he mentioned that there are disciples of Jesus Christ who are not Mormon.
Acknowledged disciples of Jesus Christ who are not members of our church!!
Right on Cynthia (319).
#321: So you’re with Left Field in the past?
Wasn’t it Joseph Smith who declared that, “One of the grand fundamentals of Mormonism was to receive truth, let it come from where it may?”
321 – Jacob, that’s never been documented as a true statement. In fact, I think it was officially denounced.
I’m sure Pres. Monson didn’t want to hear about being called as an Apostle when his fellow Apostle was 12 years old.
Brigham Young is giving a rousing sermon.
Oh I like that! We won’t be worried about whether other people think we are Christian, which is a silly political/semantic game, but we will be focused on what Christ thinks of us. Great pivot.
did I miss Elder Bednar?
I think Deiter’s been tanning!
“senior apostle”
American Eagle – mormonlore had that as a statement by an Apostle which resulted in a letter saying “nobody said that, so stop saying that.” Pretty common knowledge I thought.
Bednar spoke in PH session.
Jacob, the statement was attributed to Elder Boyd K. Packer. He issued a letter basically saying – I never said that, and I view it as doctrinally incorrect.
Elder Bednar spoke in the Priesthood session… sorry.
#333: Elder Bednar spoke in priesthood session.
I knew a french family with three daughters- Melody, Melanie, and Elody.
Elder Bednar spoke at the priesthood session.
SethR – that’s the one!
ELDER BEDNAR SPOKE IN PRIESTHOOD SESSION!
Hee. Just makin fun of y’all.
Did he just say “sell ’em”??
Elder Bednar spoke in Priesthood Session.
Hey y’all—when did Elder Bednar speak? Did i just miss him somehow?
Husband is explaining the prophetic wave to me.
what was THAT that Pres. Monson just did?
Did Pres. Monson just cast a spell on the audience??
KerBearRN #345: He caught his mistake, correcting it to “settle them”.
Looks like no explicit folklore/Bott rebuttal in this conference.
Here’s a modest proposal:
Catered snack bars at the Conference Center. It could be free, all-you could eat.
Looked like a Papal thing to me.
so just to be clear… phbbbt.
I’m now going to start each sabbath blessing my family like the prophet blessed us…hand wave included.
That was a decidedly Pope-like sketching of a blessing…
I love Prez M’s gentle humor. He’s changed for me, these years as Prophet.
@American Eagle- If they had snack bars and Diet Coke flowing at the conference center, I might make it a priority to attend a session in person.
More slow singing. Arghhhhhh
@ Ben S
The Bott rebuttal was given indirectly by Elder Christofferson.
Lori,
Diet Coke? Have you ever been to BYU or the MTC?
No new temples I guess. I noticed that they never mentioned pornography. I wonder when the last time was when that happened.
@American Eagle- I try to avoid those places. I had to be on the BYU campus this week for a science fair, and it kind of creeped me out! ;)
Sorry, WordPress was messing with me.
My oldest, watching the choir-can zoom in on a very pale young woman with dark, wavy hair: It’s Snow White!
For this last chorus, I tried to sing along in Italian, and had a very hard time stretching it out.
#359: That’s what I thought too, Eagle. My only concern is that people as impervious to reason and nuance as Bott could have easily missed it. But I think maybe Christofferson was tilling and amending a doctrinal soil that will make a more direct rebuttal easier to give in the future (or “easier to plant,” to continue the metaphor).
The question of whether or not caffeine is against the Word of Wisdom is not a personal decision at BYU.
Lots of love for the MoTab tenors in the arrangements this session.
One more time!
@ #180: The fact that one can tell conservative stories about a fact does not mean that the fact is false or that the study purporting to establish the fact is biased. There might be alternative stories to tell about the fact, but ideological distaste is not good evidence of truth or bias.
Till we meet again
* njames3 is me.
Private message from a friend on Facebook: “This song reminds me of the scene in Sleeping Beauty where all the fairies put the entire kingdom to sleep.”
And….on that note—have a great rest of your Sunday, y’all!
Thanks, everybody! Don’t let anyharmoraccidentbefallyou on your way home.
It’s been fun. See y’all in 6 months!
It’s been grand, folks. Looking forward to next weeks posts about conference. Enjoyed the good stuff and the controversy!
Shout out to all of ya, till we meet again.
With 90% of us already self-corrected, they’re not going to rail at Bott and the other 10% from the GC pulpit. And compulsion is not the way they roll, at least in this conference.
Thanks to the mods for running this thread. It helped me stay engaged!
373 – a great “rest” of our Sunday? :D
PS: Yay for everybody being good today. Here is the promised Guacamole recipe:
2 avocados
1.5 T fresh squeezed lime juice
0.5 roma tomato, diced (remove seeds and goo first)
1 handful fresh cilantro, chopped finely
2tsp-1T diced green chili (optional)
0.5 tsp salt
some fresh ground black pepper <— the secret ingredient
Maybe super finely dice 3T or so of a red onion in there too if you want.
Thanks to Ronan and Kristine and Blair Hodges for excellent behind-the-scenes work!!!
Note on the confrence centric advertisements: Let there be no mistake food storage does not beat gnome activated underground bunkers. Also I wanted to buy the Glory CD by the tabernacle choir but I can never unsee that commercial.
What was the “Bott Rebuttal”?
It may have been mentioned earlier but we spied three mustaches in the choir, in the men’s section, in case you were wondering.
An over-arching theme of Conference this year seemed to be a call to come back. They must have known I was watching. I remarked to a friend on Facebook that Elder Ballard guilted me into getting married again. I wonder how that will play out.
the “o” in David O. McKay is “Oman”; not “Otto”
I thought it was be kind to others, do your duty and seek personal revelation. I think we all hear different themes depending on our needs and circumstances.
Ned (388) I heard those themes as well. I also heard an extremely important one which is forgiveness of self. I feel that is often left out and is one of the hardest things to do.
The “o” in David O. McKay is “Oman”; not “Otto.”
On marriage research, see the following:
Charles Murray, Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010 (Crown Forum, 2012).
James Q. Wilson, The Marriage Problem: How Our Culture Has Weakened Families (HarperCollins, 2002).
Mitch Pearlstein, From Family Collapse to America’s Decline: The Educational, Economic, and Social Costs of Family Fragmentation (Rowman & Littlefield Education, 2011).
Linda J. Waite, Maggie Gallagher, The Case for Marriage: Why Married People Are Happier, Healthier, and Better Off Financially (Doubleday, 2000).
I was actually excited to hear Ballard talk about some of this social science. The negative reactions on this thread are somewhat surprising to me.
The question about what the initial “O.” stood for came when the speaker was O. Vincent Haleck.
Sorry; the comment above was about David O. McKay’s prayer so when I saw “what was the O”, I figured it was referring to Pres. McK.
If the quote WAS from Mr. Murray’s book, I guess I should not be surprised a more “right-wing” publication finds its way into the reading of a general authority.
I wonder why it has never crossed anyone’s mind (seemingly) that some women do not want to get married? Rather than see us as victims of those meanie bachelor-life-loving men. If I did not want children, I would keep my left ring finger as far away from any man as is possible to do, but since I do want children I guess I must give in and allow aforementioned finger to be “blessed” (cringe)
I’m a-scared!
I’m just here for the guacamole recipe
Best wishes with all of that, EOR.
Can I substitute garlic for the cilantro? Cilantro is of the devil.
Researcher (397) Lol, Thanks. All I can do is try. The statistics aren’t great for a 30+ female getting married anyway, let alone one who is LDS. In all fairness I have already been married though, so it would not be my first rodeo.
#398: What?!?!!! Add garlic if you want, sure. But skip the cilantro? Never!
#385: Interesting, Dovie! So there is hope for BYU? Or do those guys in MoTab have to have signed notes from their doctor to get a beard card?
Oh, you’re gonna fry like those french fries you ate.
I also broke the sabbath to buy lemonade. The proprietors were both under eight and not doing nearly as well as Sally from the Verizon commercial. Cutest little girls.
President Kimball – Do it.
President Uchtdorf – Stop it.
I’m so confused.
I guess for further clarification, you have to go back even further.
J. Golden Kimball – Damn it.
RJH–Thanks for your quotes! It was the highlight for me–along with the guac recipe!
My two cents on the guac – I add diced onion too (red onion if you got it).
I guess I do not understand the big upset over the possibility of Ballard quoting Murray. He’s quoted him before. Plus, Murray’s findings fit fairly well with other studies that point to marriage as an average component of higher financial and emotional well-being, “right wing” or not.
I know a lot of people who are married, very few of them are happy. Where are all these supposedly happily married people hiding? Don’t say Utah because I lived there for over 4 years and while there were more married people they certaintly weren’t happy. I have lived in quite a few different states and I met more unhappy people in those 4 years than anywhere else and at any time else.
The marriages in my husband’s family (8, counting his parents) and my family (5, counting my parents) are all happy, and all our friends’ marriages are happy. Not trying to say we’re the norm, but I wanted you to know that happy married people do exist.
It goes without saying that everyone is Utah is a basket case, EOR, but I shudder to think how much worse off they would be if they weren’t married!
Peter I think you may be right! My best friend is a nonmember and he got caught in the snare of a girl who was extremely desperate for marriage, and she was only like 24 yrs old. He wound up breaking it off about 3 months before the wedding because she was just too desperate. Now he realizes she just wanted to get married to a warm body–evidenced by the fact that she did not miss a beat and got married to someone else right around the time they were supposed to be married. He wound up having to eat the cost of the engagement ring, her dress, and their honeymoon package ouch!
By time I moved to Utah I was already separated so I thankfully did not get caught up in the marriage rush. I got to get out of being relegated to a Singles Ward even–awesome!
I’ve got a happy marriage (12+ years.) So do my parents and siblings. None of us live in Utah. Correlation != causation.
One of Elder Ballard’s texts is available here: http://www.ldsmag.com/component/zine/article/9414
You may think this is important or not, but facts remain: Paul Pieper failed the Utah bar more than three times – I think four times.
This boy has not many watts.
Ben S I am sure you have a very happy marriage, but time is no indicator of happiness. My parents will be married 40 years in August (dating for 43 next week) and their marriage is held together by twine, fights, and the fact that either would be homeless without the other. We call it the MacGyver marriage.
My 5 siblings are all married (I am divorced) and the only one that is happy is the one that Ballard would balk at. Similarly neither set of grandparents had a happy marriage nor any of my Aunts/Uncles/Cousins.
I think this alone is enough to debunk his ideas of marriage producing happy people/happy families.
EOR, just because you know lots of unhappy unmarried people doesn’t mean that is the general trend. I know tons of happy married people, I also know a few unhappy married people. Elder Ballard wasn’t saying that being married is a guarantee for happiness. But he was saying that kids are more likely to be happy and that adults are more likely to be happy when married. And that increased probability has a fair amount of data to back it (and of course there are some contradictory studies). Many things in life are not x=happiness but are more like x = 70% probability of happiness
cilantro is of the devil? are we going to allow that kind of statement?
I thought the whole point of statistics is to overcome the reliance on the “people I know” theories.
Then again I was on some really good drugs at the end of my statistics class…so I could be wrong, and it could all be based on the people I know. Which means a majority of the world homeschools, is happily married, seeks out natural medicine, and eats pretty healthily. there could be a flaw here.
Mr. Annon (414) I contend that no such finding can exist. Statistics can say whatever you want them to, and for Ballard’s talk that is exactly what he wanted them to say–that children of CERTAIN KINDS of marriage are happier. Also, I never went so far as to say it was the general trend…I wondered where all these happily married people are hiding. Sweeping generalizations (such as Ballard’s) never get us anywhere. If he knows a great deal of happily married people, and children of happy marriages he could have merely said so. The way he phrased it was as if X=Y (under what he deems the “right” circumstances) always. That sort of nonsense is what leads people to believe there is something wrong with them when they do not meet this criteria. It was grand-standing and it was definitely unnecessary.
Thanks everyone. I’m closing this one down. Sorry, but lesson (#415) is right. We don’t abide cilantro name-calling around here.