The “Choir of Many Colors” Saturday Afternoon Session

When we say beaming it out to 97% of the church we mean it.

When we say beaming it out to 97% of the church we mean it.


It’s ok for him to wear a dress (actually a traditional lava-lava (sarong), thanks Brooke!) to conference because awesome.

The lineup: Presient Uchtdorf conducting, President Eyring sustaining vote.

And that colorfully attired choir? They are a family choir. Pretty cool.

While it may have sounded like he said “Jeanette” in the sustainings, it was actually Gennady N. Podvodov of Ukraine.

Elder Julio A. Angulo of Bogota, Peter F. Evans of SLC, and Gennady Podvodov of Ukraine were sustained as Area Seventies

More of the line-up: President Packer, Elder Christofferson, Elder S. Gifford Nielsen.

President Packer: We live in precarious times. Lists lots of reasons why. But gospel is safety. “When I think of the future, I am overwhelmed with feelings of positive optimism.”
Story with Elder S. Dilworth Young. He told Pres. Packer to tell the Saints to read the scriptures.

“Which scriptures?”
“It doesn’t really matter.”

Elder Christofferson: He’s grateful for the moral force of women and discusses what good faithful women do.
“In all events, a mother can exert an influence unequaled by any other person or in any other relationship. By the power of her example and teaching, her sons learn to respect womanhood and to incorporate discipline and high moral standards in their own lives.”

Women bring out the best in men.

“A pernicious philosophy that undermines women’s moral influence is the devaluation of marriage and of motherhood and homemaking as a career. Some feminist thinkers view homemaking with outright contempt, arguing it demeans women, and that the relentless demands of raising children are of raising children are a form of exploitation. They ridicule what they call ‘the Mommy track’ as a career.”

“Women we rely on you.”

Elder Nielsen: Animated story of being mistaken for President Hinckley. The prophet has called us all.

Up next: Elder Arnulfo Valenzuela, Elder Timothy J Dyches, Elder Holland

Arnulfo Valenzuela. Small and simple things like hymns can make great things come to pass.

Elder Timothy J. Dyches, “Mortality is meant to be difficult. Opposition is not a flaw in the plan of salvation.”

Elder Holland: Speaking to those why suffer from mental or emotional disorders. He’s directing most of his remarks to depression. He admits to having suffered from depression himself. He describes Elder George Albert Smith having depression. See J’s post on it here.

First steps are to acknowledge God’s love. Also find help in priesthood power. Believe in miracles. Watch for stress indicators. Seek the advice of reputable professionals. Fix what you can. Be patient.

For the rest of us we need to be merciful, non-judgmental and kind.

Finishing up with Elder Ballard. He talks about how we need to be working together with missionaries to be spreading the gospel. We must pray in faith to have opportunities come. We must then demonstrate our faith when the opportunities do come.

Sister McConkie will give the closing prayer.


  1. Why is the choir not standing? Weird

  2. J. Stapley says:

    Excellent photos.

  3. height discrepancies between adults and children?

  4. I think it’s because all the height differences? I agree it looks strange though.

  5. The pizza will be out of the oven any minute. Let the afternoon session begin!!

  6. Some of the kids singing look really bored. :) Poor things. But at least they’re being included.

  7. That hymn was at a good clip. May ward choristers everywhere take note!

  8. Wow, they’re taking this one at a good clip. Kudos!

  9. another super short prayer!

  10. This is a choir of YM/YW, many of whom cannot enunciate or project, so there are adult Motab “helpers” sitting among them?

  11. Bethany West says:

    Holy hormones, Batman! That last refrain brought tears to my eyes… Was that choir particularly moving or is my pregnancy acting up again?

  12. The prayers have been really short

  13. Katherine says:

    Kirk, my guess is that it’s so the smaller kids can sit with their families (instead of all down at the front) and still see the conductor.

  14. MDearest, they are families.

  15. Do you raise your hand for the sustaining portion? I used to, but my husband doesn’t do it and I’m too self-conscious to do it in front of him.

  16. Wow, the 2nd quorum of the Seventy is shrinking down to nothing

  17. Our stake just did a family choir for stake conf. Seems like they sat as families, but still stood to sing.

  18. Mary Bliss says:

    Choir sounds good. Is this the first time a woman has conducted a mixed voice choir at conference?

  19. Wait…is this a family choir?

  20. The hydrangeas in the backdrop are gorgeous. <–(really working on the snark)

  21. I taught this song when I was Primary chorister a few years ago. Maddeningly, it doesn’t rhyme.

  22. I didn’t think about the height issue. That is probably why. I am not bothered by it, it was just different than usual. This song is really good though!

  23. What a wonderful choir. Very touching performance.

  24. ALl the discusssion in our living room is about the children sitting, or standing, or not.

  25. On short prayers: The longest GC prayer i’m aware of in the recorded era was David O. McKay’s at the solemn assembly to sustain George Albert Smith, at nearly 8 minutes. I feel like the direction must have come down lately to aim for 2 minutes or preferably less.

    (On where i’ve heard old conferences from, i have semi-bootleg recordings that i got from a library when i lived in Utah. They had pretty much everything from 1940 to the present, with scattered addresses from the late 1930s.)

  26. I really like the kids singing alone. Very touching.

  27. Whoops, I was thinking of a different song.

  28. Here we go…

  29. Elder Snow told me that the prayer length is determined by how much time they need to fill – or how much time they think they’ll need to fill. So it can vary a lot. But it does seem like they might be less concerned about that this conference because they have all been short. Though they might not have needed anything longer yet.

  30. Pres. Packer’s looking better than the last couple years.

  31. Loathing — Do you really think they give those who are asked to pray a time limit?

    I’d be interested in acquiring copies of those older conference sessions if it’s possible to share them somehow. Can I contact you through your blog about that?

  32. Larry the Cable-guy says:

    Lovely choir performance. Fingers crossed for the parents in the choir seats who are trying to keep their kids from fidgeting for the next two hours.

  33. When I think of the future, I am filled with positive optimism.

    I like that.

  34. John Taber says:

    I’ve seen women conduct Primary choirs at General Conference – and seem a little self-conscious about directing the congregation for the intermediate hymn.

  35. I think there are time limits now because it is broadcast on TV. Notice that GC never runs over. They need to stay on a schedule. If there is only 1 minute left I don’t think that we would see a 5 minute prayer. The feed would cut off in my places.

  36. Butch Bowman says:

    Loathing–I second Rob’s comment. Any way to share? (I have the ability to make cassettes into CD’s/mp3’s, BTW.)

  37. @Rob: I don’t know that they’re given a time limit, but expectations can certainly be communicated, you know?

    As for copies of old conferences, sure. I don’t have them all (years divisible by 5, mainly), and they’re not all digital format. No commercial uses, though!—i only have use of them due to the fact that i use them for academic research.

  38. elizabethany14 says:

    I need to mow the lawn while the toddler is asleep, but this morning was so great I don’t want to leave! Curses.

  39. We missed the sustainings because of making awesome bagel sandwiches. Anything interesting happen yet?

  40. John Taber says:

    “Make scripture reading a part of your regular routine, and the blessings will follow.” Thanks President Packer, that’s something I need to keep working on.

  41. I like the optimism too. It’s nice not to get the “kids these days” talk you sometimes get from members of his generation.

  42. @Brooke: No real surprises. A sustaining of a counselor in the YM general presidency without an attendant release—did the previous counselor die or something, or had the position been left empty at the last conference?

  43. Will there be a post like this for priesthood session tonight?

  44. Who gets to just show up at an Apostle’s office?

  45. Serious question: Has there ever been an actual list of those acts which require confession to a bishop, aside from the ambiguous “certain moral transgressions”?

  46. No sisters praying this conference?

  47. uh oh, I see a comment war stemming from the current talk.

  48. @jcc, Well, based on a 37.5% sample of the population…

  49. D. Todd Christofferson, a leading expert on women…llllllllllaaaaadies.

  50. @Brian: Prepare the asbestos suits!!

    (Yeah, i had the same thought.)

  51. Oh please no. Not the “praise to the woman” talk. Not after that wonderful first session.

  52. @loathing, yep, time to be quiet

  53. “She never learned how to drive a car, but she knew how to raise boys into priesthood men.” — I think this statement could be said of many women, including a lot that have drivers licenses.

  54. It’s a nice talk for mothers and women who have an influence in the home. But I hope he’ll talk about women who don’t have those opportunities.

  55. I love this man and much of what he has said since he was called as an apostle, but I don’t like stereotypes. I’m glad we had the past session first.

  56. I agree with him that women have no more important place of influence than with their children. The same applies to men as fathers. Also, nice purple tie.

  57. I always thought the “mommy track” was applied to women with children who work outside the home, and so are penalized in things like promotions and pay, not to homemakers?

  58. Mary Bliss says:

    This may not be a talk found helpful by most North American LDS women, but this is an international church and there are many LDS women and men in much more oppressive cultures for whom portions of this talk will be helpful.

  59. I’m afraid that my “refinement” took a hit a moment ago when Elder Christofferson’s talk prompted me to swear. Loudly.

  60. It’s good, in a way, to know that (given some of what he’s said) he’s familiar with second-wave feminism itself, not just its caricatures. There’s more than that to become familiar with, though, you know?

  61. I dunno about asbestos suits, but I’d say Elder C. is putting the torch to straw feminists everywhere.

  62. He is saying some good things, but he needs to talk to Elder Holland. A couple months ago in Sacrament meeting, Elder Holland talked about how we don’t talk enough about what women have done in the Church, we talk to much about Joseph, Brigham, Heber, et al, and not enough about Emma, Mary Ann, Vilate, Eliza, and also women in our day who do great deeds. He said we need to recognize women and what they have done.

  63. Yep, Elder Christofferson got the definition of “mommy track” wrong.

  64. Lolz, Jana. I’m having a hard time with this one. I just feel so far removed from his ideal – and mostly in ways I have no control over.

  65. Former BYU QB Gifford Nielsen, sporting the BYU Blue tie.

  66. Quoting from the morning session? Way to move fast, dude!

  67. Someone just wrote his talk. lol

  68. Ah, thanks. “Who’s this football dude? Should I know or care?”

  69. Gifford has a lot to say in his allotted 8 minutes. That’s why he’s speaking so fast!!

  70. Did FMH’s afternoon thread really go down during Christofferson’s talk? (and is still down?)

  71. John Taber says:

    He certainly sounds like a sportscaster.

  72. A guy who speaks like this notices exclamation marks? I’m shocked.

  73. John Taber says:

    FmH keeps having 500/internal service error problems. Hit reload once or twice and it will come back up.

  74. Looks like football dude was also “a former NFL quarterback who played for the Houston Oilers. He was the sports director of KHOU-TV in Houston, Texas, until March 31, 2009.”

  75. European Saint says:
  76. John Taber says:

    Yes, I knew he’d been with KHOU for a while – my point was he still has that sort of voice, talking fast and excited – “exclamation point”.

  77. This song is so powerful when sung by people who can really sing. I want MoTab singing it, not the thousands in the Conference Center.

  78. Striped ties really are in vogue this conference.

  79. It’s interesting when a message like this is delivered in a spirit of such obvious humility – rather than as a sermon. There is a real difference in how the message feels.

  80. @Ray: Now that you mention it, yeah—this is more of a “I’m your fellow-laborer” approach than a “Here’s what you need to do”.

  81. I liked Christofferson’s talk. He gave acknowledgment of the double-standard in morality for men and women that has existed, renounced it, and then – correctly – pointed out that the modern feminist movement made a miserable mistake in degrading women to the same level as male morality instead of calling men to rise up a level. This has always been a key defect in the modern feminist movement.

    Look, we can fart, sleep around, swear, shoot people, and misbehave too! You go girl!

  82. Regarding the 2nd picture at the top of this page, that isn’t a dress, it is a traditional lava-lava (sarong) worn by men of Samoa. Sometimes you’ll see missionaries in Samoa wearing it. Please don’t refer to it as a dress.

  83. And plenty of bona fide feminist thinkers have made exactly the same point I might add.

  84. Already seeing pre-Holland buzz on some of the Facebooks., which makes me think that some of the speakers deserve entrance music and an MC. I’m not quite as much on the Holland bandwagon as some others, but I’d love to see him walk up to the pulpit with, say, a hip-hop rendition of “Come Come ye Saints” blaring and Michael Buffer making the intro. “And now…the undefeated…undisputed..apostolic people’s CHAMPION OF THE WOOOOOOOORRRLLLLDD…”

  85. @Seth R: There’s feminism, and then there’s the strawman version of feminism Christofferson shot down. There’s a very, very important difference.

    @Brooke: It’s a joke, dude. Not the best ever, but totally not lacking in funny, either. (Not to mention that i strongly suspect that the person who wrote the caption is quite aware of what it actually is, and probably even what it’s called.)

  86. loathing, feminism is not defined by “feminists I like to hang out with.”

  87. Seth R., yeah, you need to learn a little more about feminism.

  88. @Casey: You mean something like this?

  89. I love “The Hiding Place” – and that part is incredibly powerful.

  90. John Taber says:

    But whose feminism? Christina Hoff Sommers (among others) has noted how it has evolved over the years, and not always in good ways.

  91. Someone else is commenting using my name! Nooooooooooooooo!

  92. @Seth R: Isn’t that the point? Feminism is a pretty wide-ranging set of philosophies. To say “Feminism has resulted in these bad things” is like saying “Breathing oxygen has resulted in these bad things”. Technically true, but non-meaningful.

    (Not to mention that “feminism” is a red-meat codeword in this context, which makes things even more fraught.)

  93. I fully support calling a lava-lava a dress when used for joking purposes.

  94. Yes EaT, I’m aware of other varieties of Feminism out there and have interacted with them. I hung out on fMh myself for years and even guest-posted there.

    But I think Mormon feminists (who tend to be – I’ve noticed a pretty nice variety on the whole) are more than a little naive about the depth, intensity, and crassness of the wider feminist movement in the nation.

  95. I’m a feminist and have no interest in sleeping around, shooting people, etc. EaT and loathing are right. Most real feminists just want equal opportunity to pursue their dreams and don’t want to be pigeon holed or limited because of their gender alone.

  96. Mental illness? There’s a topic you don’t hear often in GC.

  97. Mental illness talk. AWESOME.

  98. I hope the voices listen to this talk too.(haha)

  99. I think this is a great topic for a conference talk. Mental illness is so often misunderstood.

  100. Thank you, Jesus, that this is being talked about. An answer to prayer.

  101. Thank you, Elder Holland, for acknowledging that depression can’t just be wished away or walked off.

  102. loathing, a better analogy would be to say the GOP has resulted in the Tea Party. Or the Seattle WTO protests resulted in anarchists disrupting the peaceful protests by breaking store windows and burning cars.

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I’m well aware that a lot of the modern crassness of “girl culture” in America was not at all intended by many prominent feminists.

    Yet here we are – and it did happen. And a lot of the degraded party-girls out there do exactly what they do while whooping it up about “girl power” and sexual empowerment. And I’ve seen very little effort from the wider feminist movement to condemn them.

    Instead the refrain is – ignore those girls over there, we bear no connection with them and take no responsibility for them, nor do we wish to consider how we may have created them. Instead just ignore them and listen to our agenda without reference to them.

    I refuse.

  103. Jana, I agree, I have friend and family with mental illness, and the prevailing culture is not kind t those who suffer with mental illness

  104. As a Vocational Rehabilitation Counselor and as a person who’s family struggles with Major Depressive Disorder I could kiss Elder Holland Right on the Mouth for this talk, the Church has needed to hear this for years. Thank You Elder Holland

  105. Anyway, listening to Elder Holland – I give you last response if you want it.

  106. GAS. Awesome.

  107. Jeffrey R. Holland saying out loud and publicly that he faced depression! And i was just about to immediately follow that with “Does that mean we get to talk about George Albert Smith’s depression now?” only to have Elder Holland beat me to it.

  108. @Seth R: I think you’re simply wrong in tarring all feminism with the same brush. That’s okay, though—that’s an issue at the borders of anything worth focusing on, i’d say, so we can just agree to disagree on that for the moment.

  109. This is fabulous.

  110. If you had appendicitis, God would expect you to get a priesthood blessing *and* go to the doctor for it. The same is true with emotional disorders.

  111. Kent Larsen says:

    Holland’s talk is perhaps the most important of this conference.

  112. John Taber says:

    “We are infinitely more than our limitations or complications.”

  113. Kent Larsen says:

    If I understand correctly, Holland is talking about NieNie.

  114. Kevin Barney says:

    God’s love is there for us whether or not we deserve it. Sounds a lot like unconditional love…

  115. Beautiful talk. “Though we may feel we are like a broken vessel, we must remember that vessel is in the hands of the divine potter.”

  116. Given my family history and what some of my extended family face and have faced, this is a wonderful talk.

  117. President Uchtdorf’s and Elder Holland’s addresses were both amazingly important to different (though in a few cases overlapping) groups. Elder Dube’s address was the most stirring. And we’re only in the second session!

  118. Midwest Mormon says:

    Elder Holland just finished one of the best talks ever given in General Conference.

  119. Maybe I just get teary-eyed more as I get older. But this was a really moving address.

  120. That was a beautiful talk from Elder Holland. Everyone can go home now, I heard what I needed to hear.

  121. Lots of talks on missionary work this conference.

  122. Elder Ballard is actually giving a solid, important-topic address. Hard to do when the previous speaker just sucked all the air out of the room, you know?

  123. Kristine N says:

    Okay, Elder Holland’s talk made me tear up. That was awesome.

  124. Brooke from UW says:

    @Brooke. Oops, sorry, Brooke! Didn’t see someone else using my name.
    @BCC: Thanks. :)

  125. My husband I suspect has an anxiety disorder, but refuses to get help. He basically wants to “pray it out.” His family has a major bias against mental health issues and he was raised that way. My husband greatly respects the apostles. To have an apostle directly adress these biases and direct people to get help was a miracle I never thought would happen.

  126. John Taber says:

    “It’s impossible for us to fail, when we do our best, when we are on the Lord’s errand.”

  127. Absolutely great stuff from Elders Uchtdorf and Holland.

  128. “But I think Mormon feminists (who tend to be – I’ve noticed a pretty nice variety on the whole) are more than a little naive about the depth, intensity, and crassness of the wider feminist movement in the nation.”

    Oh, that’s rich. Seth R. mansplaining feminism to MoFems. Let me put this as crassly as possible: stfu.

  129. What Kristine said. x 1,000,000

  130. Mel, I think that happens in a lot of Mormon families–it has in mine. And, yeah, having an apostle to quote on the subject will be tremendously helpful. Hallelujah.

  131. @other Brooke: It happens; our name isn’t exactly common. I’ve never seen another Brooke in the bloggernacle before.

  132. Wow Kristine, that was real classy, I mean crassy. ANd quite frankly, completely uncalled for.

  133. So, MEN, who’s watching PH Session on the couch at home, and who’s going to their local meetinghouse to watch as has been instructed we should still do, “as distance permits.”

  134. Who saw the little kid in the white shirt and blue striped tie do the fish lips imitation??

  135. Kristine, nice how you balance out the crassness by politely using lower case.

  136. Butch Bowman says:

    Priceless. The kid is yawning.

  137. And then, a nice 11 year old yawner!!

  138. @Rob: Yes, perhaps crass (though mildly so), but you have to admit that being lumped in with people you don’t approve of ’cause it’s convenient for the person making the attack to do so, well, that’s gonna result in some heated reactions.

  139. Awesome, Rob. I can have men explain feminism to me, AND lecture me on manners. Thank you!!

  140. John Taber says:

    I’m going to my ward’s meetinghouse.

  141. Rob, judgmental much?

  142. I’m making roasted tomatillo-serrano salsa for our ward’s pre-PH Nacho Bar. Now we just need recliners hauled into the chapel.

  143. Did you see the little boy who yawned just as the cameras were on him?

  144. Ok, the family choir made me tear up singing one of the sappiest songs in the hymn book. Just confessing it here. It’s good for my soul.

  145. Butch Bowman says:

    They sound great, though.

  146. I’ll be watching the PH session at the chapel ’cause there’s someone who’ll be there who i need to catch up with and take care of something with in person. Not sure what i’d do if that wasn’t the case.

  147. Gonna be watching it at home with my whole family, like we did the Relief Society meeting. Like God intended.

  148. @Kristine — You’re welcome.

  149. @Rob: I’m a watch it at home with my wife. I might have possibly considered getting all dressed up and going to a stake center if I had friends in the area, but I don’t so I don’t feel compelled to sit on hard metal chair playing with my phone for two hours when I can do that at on my couch home! Also, speaking of PH, in the interest of self-promotion any interested parties may please click the link on my name for a post about OW on my blog today. It has gifs :)

  150. So they send a woman to pray with 9 minutes left in which to pray, and she barely gets 90 seconds.

  151. John Taber says:

    Maybe that’s all she felt to say.

  152. 90 seconds was enough, Rob. It’s always enough. :)

  153. Yikes. I really love the family choir…bring in the children…never adult moment, we saw the yawn too…or was he pulling faces while singing lesson numbers one? Woman prayer!!!!!!!!

  154. I will be at the building, in slacks and a polo shirt.

  155. And to think she could have broken a record…

    (Seriously, i’ll take an early end to pretty much any meeting i’m in, so i wish to offer praise to Sr. McConkie for not feeling like she needed to fill the time.)

  156. Whoo Hoo! Early end to a church meeting! I only wish my local leaders figured out that when enough has been said (thanks Elder Holland), you don’t need to fill up the rest of the time.

    I’m watching priesthood at the ward building, but only because of the ice cream bribe afterwards.

  157. Yoshinobu says:

    I think swearing at an Apostle is generally not a good idea, regardless of who/what gender is doing it.

    full disclosure: I’m a guy, if that matters to you.

  158. John Taber says:

    In my ward’s case they’re meeting at Five Guys first. I got comped last time but since there’s no guarantee of that I will just go to the meetinghouse (and for the 32nd time, give or take, to this building).

  159. Butch Bowman says:

    I like long prayers and hymns. To me, they are the worship part of the service, along with the Sacrament.

  160. Kristine, that response did not really do your ideals any great service. If anything, it merely reinforced the stereotype of the feminist movement peddling a degraded and crass version of femininity. Actually, never mind femininity, that would have been a wretched response for any aspect of humanity.

    Also, has the word “mansplaining” become another one of those code words for “I’m not going to deal with your argument?”

    Maybe that little outburst made you and a few others feel better, but it served no other useful purpose.

  161. I’ll be at the Conference Center. I feel bad watching on TV when I live so close, and there are about a dozen chapels I could watch it at as well within close distance

  162. @Seth R: Have you realized yet that *your* responses aren’t really doing any of your ideals any great service, either?

  163. After all, as Pres. Uchtdorf pointed out to us earlier, we need a diversity of people an opinions in this church, right?

  164. Surely, Seth, the accusation of “mainsplaning” couldn’t have come from your confident assertions that you understand feminism better than so many actual self-identified Mormon feminists; no, it must be because they refuse to deal with the sheer overwhelming force of your arguments! Could it be that in the time you spend tangling with church critics who claim with equal confidence that they know Mormonism better than actual practicing Mormons, you’ve picked up some of their tricks?

  165. Keep digging that hole, Seth R. Keep digging.

  166. Yoshinobu says:

    Sure, but I don’t think swearing at an Apostle is the kind of diversity we’re looking for. I mean, I normally value Kristine’s opinions and viewpoint, but not when it crosses that line.

  167. Seth R. is an apostle??

  168. marginalizedmormon says:

    don’t forget Elder Dube from Africa, in the Saturday morning session–

    I realize he’s not as ‘famous’ as some of the others, but–

    his talk really resonated with many of *us*, especially those of us who love Africa and people from Africa (including African Americans)–

  169. Yoshinobu, WTF are you talking about? Go back and read more closely.

  170. Not last I checked.

    I certainly hope I’m not.

  171. Yoshinobu says:

    Oh, My apologies, I thought Kristine@2:40pm was aimed at Elder Christofferson.

  172. I think he’s talking about Jana’s comment earlier when she said Elder Christofferson’s talk made her swear loudly. But it didn’t sound like she was swearing *at* him, just swearing generally, in frustration because of what he was saying.

  173. Nope. I think I did once call Elder Christofferson’s son a “poo-head,” but we were both 14. There’s gotta be a statute of limitations on that sort of thing, right? (Also, he WAS a 14-year-old boy, so the chances are high that I was right.)

  174. Maybe Casey, but I do note the conspicuous absence of any response to me other than “you’re a man so stfu!”

    Aside from loathing’s civil declarations that I was painting with too broad a brush – which were appreciated. Perhaps anger has become an acceptable substitute for argument here.

  175. Or not.

  176. Yoshinobu says:

    Yes, I got those two comments mixed up, I’m terribly sorry :(

  177. Seth, for future reference, “mansplaining” always means “I’m not going to deal with your argument.”

  178. No, Seth, I’m just too tired to have the argument with you. Seriously, if you think you have a better grasp of what feminism is like than I do, I’m not sure I’ll ever have enough energy to fight with you about it. I know a fair number of feminists. Really liberal, secular ones. They are not trying to be men, and all of them adore their children and consider motherhood and family constitutive of their identity. Yes, there are the Andrea Dworkins of the world, but… no, wait, there’s ONLY ONE ANDREA DWORKIN!! It has been a very long time since anyone considered anything like a “mainstream” feminist has suggested that there are no differences between men and women or that motherhood is a form of oppression that women should avoid.

  179. Thomas Parkin says:

    ” that little outburst made you and a few others feel better, but it served no other useful purpose.”

    Does it need another purpose? One of the great things about BCC, and some of these other blogs, is that it gives us a chance to vent, to express what we really feel and think, however crass or wrong it may be or seem.

    I don’t really consider myself a feminist, for my own piddling, semantic reasons, but as to expressions of anger, which underneath are disappointment and hurt from failing again to be seen, please bring it on.

    Speaking of crass, I find it disappointing that in the politics of the moment an Apostle would call out feminism by name. Yes, yes, all are welcome – but let’s not forget that we can call out the enemy by name. Very disappointing.

  180. MDearest–it’s true that sometimes “mansplaining” means that. But in this case, it was just that there really was no argument to engage, only the assertion that Seth knows better than most Mormon feminists what feminism is like. That’s not an argument, it’s simple arrogance.

  181. Kristine, I’m not just talking about Andrea Dworkin, I wasn’t even thinking about her to be honest. I was thinking about where our popular and advocated girl lifestyle has gone in our wider culture in general, and how feminism has been used as an excuse for that.

    It wasn’t a statement that feminism is all X or Y. It was a statement that feminism bears responsibility for this to some degree, and to the degree that our culture is like this – it represents a distinct failure of the feminist movement in general, whatever you think of the praiseworthiness of the movement’s stated ideals. Every movement, good or bad, has to figure out how to deal with and address the trolls that it has in the ranks.

    Incidentally one of my favorite feminist authors wrote a hugely scathing and bleak portrayal of the porn industry. So it’s not like my message is “oh you feminists all want to crassify the female experience.”

  182. Seth, I promise I’m reasonably well-versed in the varieties of current feminisms, and if this were a conversation about areas in which some feminisms have failed young women, I suspect that I could adduce even more examples than you can. (I would also argue that what you are calling “feminism” may in fact be more like capitalist exploitation of young girls using distorted versions of feminism, and that such exploitation is and should be at the heart of what feminism is working to change. But that’s a long conversation for a different day).

    But what you are saying now is not what you said above. What you said above is that you (and Elder Christofferson) have a more accurate view of what feminism is _really_ like than most of those naive Mormon feminists. I think you are mistaken.

  183. Also, I’m done–not because I wouldn’t love to argue with you some more, but because I’ve got to go get my boys fed and off to church with their dad. So there ya go.

  184. Wouldn’t it be somewhat obvious that with feminism there has been increasing freedom. women have more options to choose from,both good and bad.

  185. Thank you for the further thoughts Kristine.

  186. Re Elder Christofferson and feminism:

    Some suggestion has been made here about him arguing against a straw feminism. But he only mentioned feminism one time to my memory, and even then said “some feminists” (thereby clearly avoiding a broad-brushed painting of feminism — note that he didn’t even say “many” or “most”). Am I missing other engagement with feminism per se? (Sincere question.) (I forget which specific claim he linked with the F word, but I only remember one, and a qualified one at that.)

    I’m curious if the tenor of the talk changes in the minds of some if it is not really about feminism, but about things like (in Kristine’s words) “capitalist exploitation of young girls using distorted versions of feminism.” Again, sincere question.

  187. Seth,

    Allow me to mansplain. Patriarchy is one of the movements of which it is permissible to say it has resulted in bad attitudes and behaviors. It is not permissible to make the same assertion about feminism because we are men and also because patriarchy. K?

    The only appropriate way for us to engage the female gender in discussion is in a spirit of either genuflection or…emotional solidarity, maybe? This standard does not apply in reverse because mansplaining, so stfu.

    See? Vols almost upset Georgia, but with that exception Conference is turning out to be way more interesting than this weekend’s college games.

  188. I think christopherson’s talk demands a relook. Having watched it 3 times now, he does say some feminists…once in relation to homemaking. The rest is related to culture, or those who push for equality who deny differences between women and men-leaving open a place for normal feminists and normal people who are for equality. I liked what little he said about modesty and he was very clear that men must also be moral and stand with women for what is right. I didn’t think I’d like his talk..I was worried it go towards the pedestal or something.

  189. I’ve been involved with feminist groups and taken women’s studies classes but never heard the term “normal feminist” before. Fact is, a lot of our perceptions are based on feminists we meet IRL. A liberal feminist in Idaho may be considered conservative or not even a feminist if she moves to one of the coasts.

    Maybe if I knew the same people that Kristine does, I would also be more positive about feminism. But the reality is that I do not. And my experiences are no less legitimate.

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