I thought about writing something longer, pointing people to Mosiah 29, enumerating his numerous vices, but there’s not much point in doing so. Casting your vote for an evil person is a sin.
When I said something similar in 2016, folks debated whether voting is a moral choice, whether Trump was really that much worse than Hillary, etc., etc., but I believe I have been vindicated in every respect. He is evil and has led our country closer to the brink of infamy and internal collapse. Voting for him is unjustifiable and morally wrong. Therefore it is a sin.
By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog 
I do NOT and have never admired nor supported Trump. Never will, BUT it seems too black and white to cast that waste of space as “evil”. In my own opinion he doesn’t have the moral fiber to BE evil. Besides what about Matthew 7:1-3? God will judge that creep in good time. Let him.
@Melanie, so you’re saying that you won’t be judging Donald Trump in any aspect or degree this Presidential election?
I should be clear: I don’t know the eternal fate of Donald Trump. When I say he is evil, I can only evaluate the facts before me. He has done a lot of evil things. Like, a lot.
Yes, because of the evil that the administration has caused for so many — even if it were just the migrants at the border whose families were destroyed, in some cases — but many more than that have suffered as a direct or indirect result of his actions and words — if we know better, we must choose better. We will never have a perfect president, and our government will never save us from our own evil, but we can choose someone whose intent is to do good. The Book of Mormon has never seemed more current. Gadiantons everywhere.
I am shocked that you are so willing to expose your “Pharisaical” nature to the whole world.
Clime down off your tower Steve.
You don’t have an exclusive on brains.
All mortals are sinners; therefore all votes are sinful.
I suppose then we can’t vote for anyone.
All mortals are sinners, but not all potential leaders are equally evil. That much is undeniable, and the last four years have vindicated Steve.
Anyone else think the First Presidency sent out their “it’s important to vote” letter earlier in the year than usual? I also don’t remember encouraging people to register. Could totally be projecting here, but it seemed to follow the “have a plan to vote” story the Dems are telling this year, to make sure people’s votes are actually counted.
Gary, I’m impressed that you can spell “Pharisaical” but not “climb”.
Van Norman, that’s a heckuva syllogism that (as C. Keen points out) erroneously equates all votes. Same with Mike.
Yeah Steve. I would be on board with that assessment. 🍪👑
All mortals are indeed sinners. All mortals are not, however, evil. It is a sin to knowingly vote for anyone who has so clearly demontrated he is evil. I would add it is also a sin to justify a vote for evil by attempting to draw false equivalencies. Justifying sin is sin.
D&C 98:9-10: “When the wicked rule the people mourn. Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise, whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.”
Trump is not honest (20,000+ lies and counting). He is not wise (he is ignorant about almost everything). He is also not good (he has shown to have absolutely no moral principles). Biden is certainly not perfect, but even Republicans he worked with in the Senate have to admit that he is an inherently good and decent person. Latter-day Saints, if you believe your own scriptures, you have no choice. And you can’t pretzel your way into somehow pretending Trump is a necessary choice. He is a wicked man, corrupt in every possible way. He has cheated on three wives, on his taxes, in his business practices, and in his decimation of American constitutional principles and practices. Heck, he can’t even run a charity without corrupting it.
Preach, Steve, preach, for your preferred evil man and against someone else’s preferred evil man.
To me it’s a “sin” to get into politics in a Church setting
tubes, if you really think that’s the choice presented, you’re sadly mistaken.
And here we are in a church full of sinners. What a surprise. A majority of American Mormons voted for Trump in 2016. The same will be true this year.
Add this to our ponderous basket of evils, since most Mormons have also been, by turns, racist, pro-eugenics, Nazi-appeasing, sexist, and overconsumptive. Zion’s cup of evil runneth o’er with patriarchy and McMansions.
You’re right, Steve. But don’t for a second have the hubris to think that you – or anyone else – can do anything about it (unless you yourself were inclined to vote for Trump, which I doubt). Even God can’t (or won’t) solve the problem of evil.
Commenting in support–
We know there are several definitions of sin, and admonitions not to judge. Which makes Steve’s bold declaration challengeable on a “who are you to say?” basis. For myself, I have opinions about Mr. Trump but my political leanings are so far left that there never has been much to talk about. I have more opinions about people who have voted or who plan to vote for a second term for Mr. Trump. I’m sure there are exceptions and some perfectly honorable people in the crowd, but close up the mental gymnastics I am watching will, I believe, canker souls. That’s one definition of sin I can stand behind.
All mortals possess the light of Christ; therefore all politicians are capable of good.
Hmm. I will be voting against Donald Trump because I believe that he is an evil and corrupt man who is doing what is probably irrevocable damage to this country. But I might classify voting for him as a bad choice – a really really bad choice, a deluded choice – rather than as a sin. As somebody said earlier, I don’t think it’s that clear-cut. It might be more of a sin to throw your vote away, as so many did in 2016 (Mitt Romney, I’m looking at you).
Van Norman, you’re two for two on misleading syllogisms. We’ve proven out Trump’s potential for good. It is severely limited.
Possum: I leave the existential problem of evil to the philosophers and theologians. I’m just here to point out the obvious.
I wonder if it is a sin to be amused at this post and comments. Maybe it’s just an emotional-defense mechanism.
The definition of sin just keeps getting broader and broader in the LDS Church.
Dylan, the definition is what it’s always been: when we know what’s right and we don’t do it.
Wondering: I don’t think you’re actually wondering anything, and you know the answer.
maybe we should define “sin” as actual sin instead of defining it as someone’s political perspective
Steve, I have to agree with you. I’ve been reading the Book of Mormon a lot this year, a whole lotta lot, and it just has never been more prescient. It feels almost obvious that the downfall of the American society and culture is tied to the election of this truly evil guy. I’m not saying the other politicians are good, without fault, or sinless, but this guy is so exceptionally bad, I can’t understand how so many people can’t see it. I keep having to check myself and make sure I’m not the one who is being hoodwinked.
When he was first elected someone said to me, “well, it is God’s plan,” and I said, yes, the anti-Christ is part of God’s plan to bring about Armageddon,” so maybe they’re right after all.
The greater sin is voting for Trump a second time. Fool me once…blah, blah, blah. Shame on you!
Meems, exactly.
I have no problem with members of the Church who happen to be on the right or members of the Church who happen to be on the left. I do have problems with leftists who happen to be members of the Church or rightists who happen to be members of the Church. I will each to evaluate for themselves whether their politics have become their God
Steve, it might be that you are a far left liberal and that is the reason you call Trump evil.
Steve, I think your thoughts highlight how voting for Donald Trump has ceased to be a political question. It has become a moral question and I think you are on the right (correct) side. Insisting that this is still merely about politics is willingly turning a blind eye in order to justify an immoral choice. We may, or may not, be held accountable for our political decisions. We will absolutely be made to account for our moral choices.
We will each be judged by using our talents to support right or to support wrong. There is no voting exception. We each have to search our conscience to know what is right or wrong. It’s not a very hard search with Trump.
Fascinating. Surely many people commenting here would say that drinking coffee or tea is a sin, and yet voting for someone who is clearly evil, whose terrible leadership has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths, whose policies tear apart families, and who is openly racist, and who is working to suppress democracy…THAT couldn’t possibly be a sin? Come on. Of course it’s a sin to vote for Trump. Is it the type of sin you can never recover from? Of course not. But if you support these types of policies and ideals you are sinning, and voting to push those policies on others is out of line with the gospel.
Careful elletee, that principle can come back to bite you. c.f. the 2020 Democratic party platform document available at democrats.org (page 33, in particular), vs. Section 21.4.1 of Handbook 2 (or for a succinct summary, the first two paragraphs here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/abortion)
Jonathan makes a great point above. It would be prudent for each of us to consider whether our politics have become our god. The bright-line statement in the OP equating a political position with sin seems to fail that test.
tubes, again the both sides gimmick doesn’t work anymore because Trump is demonstrably evil.
Steve, how about providing a list of things Trump has actually done that are evil.
The New York Times provided a list of 123 things Trump has done and evaluated each item on the list. I’m sure you are aware the New York Times is not a Trump fan. The word evil doesn’t appear in the article. They gave him credit for many accomplishments.
It may be there are things about his personality you don’t like, but that doesn’t make him evil. I find many things about him distasteful, but his accomplishments can’t be ignored.
I suggest you withdraw this post and call it a day.
Lots of people are big mad at this. A common thread seems to be that the church hasn’t specifically said that voting for him is sinful, so you’re out of line if you say it. I agree that until the church puts out such a statement, it would be wrong to claim to speak for the church and say that the church says supporting Trump is a sin, but there seems to be this idea that even saying so just on your own and not on the church’s behalf is also wrong. It seems to rest on some unspoken assumption that moral judgment doesn’t extend to situations where the church hasn’t spoken, which seems to me to be obviously wrong and dangerous.
I would be curious to see what Steve’s response is to JFK. I had never seen that NYT link before. I actually learned a lot of the great things Trump as done from it. Pretty cool.
Keep rolling, Steve. So is PBA. Demonstrably.
You’re free to label whatever you like as sin. More power to you, or rather, more power you elect to arrogate to yourself. Don’t act surprised by the pushback you get, though.
Jared,
Where I take issue with Steve’s post is that while he says that he isn’t passing judgement on Trump’s eternal fate, he is absolutely passing judgement on those who vote for Trump. While I have never voted for Trump, and voting for him does me no good (my state will vote for Biden no matter what), I know many people, including those in my own family, who are seriously considering voting for him because of the policies he supports that they find worthwhile (such as judicial appointments).
Quite simply, you can’t say whether or not someone else is sinning by voting for Trump. You have no authority to pass judgement over them for it, nor do you know their hearts to understand why they vote they way they do. If it is a sin, then it is something between them and the Lord, and no one else. You can’t even hide behind the Church saying it’s a sin, because they have explicitly not said that.
On the other hand, making such statements is inherently judgmental and divisive, at a time when the Brethren had explicitly called for greater civility and respect for those who disagree with you. Neither Steve nor you has any authority to pass such judgement over me or my friends/family who disagree with you. All this post does is stir up contention, which is not from the Lord.
We can say that someone is sinning without claiming to pass judgment on their souls. We do it every week when we teach Sunday School lessons.
I have a sibling who cares about one agenda, Abortion. He didn’t vote Trump the first time around but will this time. He is thinking it is more moral to vote Trump in and for him ban abortion, millions of lives saved. I’m at a loss how to justify that opinion.
Members of the Church who support Trump in 2020 have forsaken questions of morality. Here’s my quick take:
I remember so many Church members losing their minds back in the 1990’s about President Clinton’s bad acts in relation to the Monica Lewinsky affair….arguing loudly that we should support “righteous leaders.” The disgust at Clinton’s bad acts was palpable and ubiquitous. That talk about the importance of righteous leaders is notably absent from these same folk today. Poof! Gone. For Church members who support Trump 2020, it was never about morality; it’s about ones pet political beliefs.
These members have effectively ceded the ground on morality. Enter Steve Evans.
From 2000 to 2014, the Church’s regular political letter that was read over the pulpit prior to US elections included this counsel: “Latter-day Saints as citizens are to seek out and then uphold leaders who will act with integrity and are wise, good, and honest.” Somehow in 2016, when Donald Trump was on the ticket, the sentence was deleted, and it was missing again from this year’s letter. It makes one wonder why that advice, based on D&C 98:10, is no longer applicable.
Look, observer, I did not write this post, so don’t ask me to defend it. Steve can do that. But this idea you’re expressing that “if it is a sin, then it is something between them and the Lord, and no one else” is kind of astounding to me. That’s not a view of sin that I have heard from the church or it’s members. To the contrary, we’re constantly teaching that we should seek and support people of good moral character, and that sin affects everyone around us. I’m totally with you that we don’t have authority to pretend to judge somebody else’s salvation, but surely we ought to prayerfully exercise our best moral judgment with respect to actions and behaviors and policies and elections.
CTR: That is shocking!
I firmly believe that I’ll be judged by God on the participation I took as a citizen. I think how I vote on a issue is rarely important in God’s eyes; just that I voted. However…every once and a while we are faced with a moral dilemma. This is one of those times when Trump is just plain wrong. Anyone inciting violence and saying they won’t honor the peaceful transfer of power has crossed the line.
A Friday Firestorm…..on a Tuesday!
Jared, you’re absolutely right. Surely you can see, however, that the OP precludes such a process, by blacklisting as “sin” anything other than its foreordained answer as the result?
tubes: no
I don’t see how any other person expressing their opinion precludes me from doing so.
Jared, are we playing semantic games? If so, fine. I’m not sure, however, where I ever stated that anyone was precluded from expressing an opinion; but if all is opinion, including what is and is not sinful, then we can summarize this whole OP and discussion as follows:
The opinion of Steve and some commentors: voting for Trump is a sin.
The opinion of IASOT: not necessarily.
The opinion of other commentors: [various]
:)
CTR, that phrasing isn’t there, but equivalent phasing is.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-letter-united-states-election-2020
“Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various political parties, and members should seek candidates who best embody those principles.”
Tubes, take a look at which party platform is compatible with the choices permitted by https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/abortion.
Hint: It’s not the Republicans.
Tubes, finally we agree. Of course this post is my opinion; I have no authority to make it anything else. However, I think it is a reasoned opinion, and entirely consistent with the teachings of scripture and basic logic. You disagree, but as I and others have pointed out, there are flaws in your arguments. And there we are.
Observer: I can say a given action is sinful without passing judgment on those who engage in such action. We believe it is sinful to, say, smoke cigarettes, and we proclaim this with regularity. Or should we stop doing that?
The author is being deliberately provocative, which by itself is acceptable, and positions himself as a moral arbiter, which is not. Especially when his thinking is so weak in his minimal argument. It’s just not very smart and would fail a course in logic or argument. You don’t have to be a Trump supporter to see that, but it helps to be a Trump hater to accept such juvenile reasoning. His premise alone, that Trump is evil, is presented without evidence other than what he seems to believe is self-evident. He calls Trump’s evil “demonstrable” without demonstrating a single example. His fellow haters in these comments are blinded enough to simply accept this lightweight piece of confirmation bias. His argument is something you’d expect from a high-schooler trying to be oh-so clever. I’m also shocked at the willingness of many commenters here to join in rendering conclusive judgement on both Trump and his supporters. The author seems happy to not simply throw the first stone, but hand more stones to anyone around.
There are certain sins, particularly those that are a matter of intent, that are purely between the individual and the Lord, because only the Lord knows that individual’s heart. For example, it is a sin to partake of the sacrament unworthily, but (excepting major transgressions), whether you are worthy is between you and the Lord. It’s not up to Brother Smith or Sister Sorenson in the new pew over to decide that someone wasn’t worthy.
Some people see leftist policies as directly inspired by Satan’s plan, and would directly attack people’s agency by trying to compel them to do what the government deems to be right. To them, that could be seen as a greater sin than supporting someone whose policies they see as generally supporting individual liberty even if the individual they vote for is immoral. No one but the Lord has the knowledge, the authority, or the ability to accurately judge that person’s motives.
Semantic games? No, I don’t think so. You asked what I thought was a fairly direct question (“Surely you can see, however, that the OP precludes such a process [prayerfully exercising our best moral judgment as to elections], by blacklisting as “sin” anything other than its foreordained answer as the result?”), and I gave what I thought was a fairly direct answer. Did I misunderstand your question? Was it not about whether Steve’s post precludes prayerfully exercising moral judgment?
Steve,
“We,” as in the Church through the words of our living prophets, proclaim the importance of obeying the Word of Wisdom regularly. However, that doesn’t mean that it’s appropriate for individual members to start chastising or judging others, accusing them of sin, for not following a personal interpretation of the Word of Wisdom that goes beyond what the prophets have explicitly taught as sin.
I have personally met members who speak out about how refined sugar, white flour, caffeine, chocolate, vaccines, and many other substances are violations of the Word of Wisdom. Those members may have received personal revelation that they should avoid any or all of those substances, but that doesn’t mean that another member who partakes of them is sinning. Personal interpretation is not the same thing as doctrine, and passing judgement on others (among which accusing them of sinning is a form) on the basis of that interpretation is spiritually dangerous and contentious.
Observer, I agree with you that it’s not our call to say that a particular person is sinning by partaking of the sacrament unworthily, because we don’t know that they are unworthy in the first place. But surely we can express the opinion that partaking of the sacrament unworthily is sinful. It is possible that a person who steals something might subjectively believe incorrectly that they have a right to it, and maybe in their mind, it wasn’t really stealing, and we have no way of reading that person’s mind to know if they did hold such a belief, but surely we can say that stealing is a sin.
In a similar way, it is possible that a person might actually be deceived into thinking that Trump is a moral person or that he is, comparatively speaking, the morally superior choice. From my perspective, that’s bonkers, but it is possible that a person could hold that incorrect view and support him. But Steve can still say, without judging whether each person who supports him, that in his opinion, supporting him is immoral. If it’s more comfortable, we could amend it to say that supporting him knowing that he is immoral is a sin. You and I can disagree that it is inherently immoral to do so, but Steve having that opinion does not require him to pretend to know the mind of heart each person that supports him, just because some might be doing so out of ignorance, with good intentions.
RCL: yawn.
Steve – I’ve always liked Dennis Prager’s statement along the lines of “it’s not important if we agree. Rather, it’s important that we clearly understand how we disagree.”
Maybe that is the issue here – a lack of clarity as to how we disagree. Of course all online posts are opinion. Productive discussion is often foreclosed, however, when one opinion is presented as a moral absolute (“sin”), leaving no room for good faith dissent.
“good faith” is always on my mind.
Fair enough. I’ll sign off from this thread, then, noting that I am sporting my dissent collar as to the OP.
While I wouldn’t classify everyone’s choice to vote for Trump as a ‘sin,’ I would definitely echo back all the sentiments and urgency that Republicans, including many, many church members have lanced at Democrats over the years. For instance, I’ve personally heard that Democrats are ‘under’s Satan’s influence,’ ‘beguiled by the Devil,’ ‘don’t understand the Plan of Salvation,’ and ‘support policies that lead to disbelief in God,’ off the top of my head. The list is very, very long.
Let’s make play games here–Republicans have called Democrats immoral, atheist, baby killers for decades. That Democrats are returning the smallest portion of those accusations and Republicans are flipping out and calling for fair treatment is hilarious.
This is every bit as bad as my elderly mother accusing democrats as all being evil. Trump is far less racist than Biden and I am not even voting for Trump. He hasn’t done anything racist that wasn’t already an Obama policy. He has a consistent record of hiring and promoting minorities in his businesses and politics. Many non-racist minorities approve of him, he counts many people of color as dear friends. Instead of just throwing out the party-line that you heard on MSNBC, doing as Nate Silver suggested after Dems lost the last election and increase your myopic bubble to try and understand why your neighbor votes the way they do. You likely have more in common than you think. Biden is one of the biggest liars in the history of the senate and one of the biggest racists. If those things disqualify you for office, then we don’t have anyone to vote for. Maybe Bernie Sanders, that guy is as honest as they come.
LMAO
Now even Steve is laughing, so I guess being amused at all this is not a sin — but it’s a very sad sort of amusement.
Well, this promises to be a worthwhile discussion!
Steve, agree there is no honest justification for a member to vote for Trump. I see abortion, and fear of socialism, and small government used. With a little research all of these are lies. I can not comprehend how my fellow members can swallow these lies without question. Is it years of obedience training at church. Is it that morality is defined as the length of your skirt?
On abortion; How Americans vote does affects african women. When there are republican presidents they restrict aid for womens health care, birth control, and abortion, and this time even more restrictions.
There are estimated to be 4.6 million abortions in Africa when there is a republican president, and 2.7 million when democrat president(40% reduction, 1.9 million). Many of these abortions are not legal, and not medically supervised resulting in 47,000 maternal deaths. Many are the result of rape. Treatment of malaria, and aids are also restricted by republicans. https://www.populationconnection.org/article/abortion-restrictions-in-u-s-foreign-aid-the-history-and-harms-of-the-helms-amendment/ of course these are black women, BLM?
To put this in perspective there are 600,000 abortions in america, over 90% before 13 weeks.
Republicans have sold christians that they are anti abortion, but that too is a lie, at home or abroad. In the US abortions reduce when democrat presidents are in because they fund birth control for poor women, they have reduced abortion by half, republicans withdraw funding, and have not reduced abortions at all.
We have just had a general conference during an exceptional election campaign. I understand there are reasons why church leaders could not explicitly say vote one way or the other. But there were messages, particularly from Pres Oaks, who seems very concerned.
1. A group of people all social distancing, and wearing masks. Not Trump
2. Racism is bad and we must work to eradicate it. Not Trump
3. Demonstrations are constitutional, but violence is bad. 93% of BLM protests peacefull, violence come with white supremacists, or heavy handed policing. Not Trump
4. Contention, and bullying and hatred of the devil Not Trump
5.Zion society, one mind, and no poor among them Not Trump
6. Remove our prejudices, and find our moral compass. Not Trump
7. Heal society by being Christlike, honest, peacemakers, living and respecting our fellow men, be kind, humble, caring. Not Trump
8 Racial and other Diversity, and love can go together Not Trump
9. Be subject to law, oppose anarchy. Not Trump
10. Peacefully accept the results of elections. Not Trump
11. Loyalty to established law, not temporary leader. Not Trump
12. There were no warnings about socialism. Not Trump
13. Nothing about masks = attack on religious freedom. Not Trump
These are all from the Saturday morning session.
I don’t care if he’s evil or just impossibly selfish, and I don’t care if it’s a sin to vote him out. We MUST get him out, he has already damaged the country almost beyond recognition.
I believe the bloggernacle has devolved over the years. Too much of what is posted and many of the comments are skewed towards nitpicking at the church and its leaders to outright insinuating the church is a failing religious institution headed by out of touch old men.
When LDSaliveinchrist.com was taken down by LDSblogs.org shakers and movers (Steve were you part of that?) a few years ago that was an indication of the prevailing mindset here. There were some who enjoyed reading Jared’s post.
I hope LDSblog.org leadership will go in search and add blogs that will lift this forum from the stagnation that is creeping in. There are too few faithful blogs to choose from. I hope for a better mix in future.
Steve, I’d like to agree. But I think a Talleyrand quote (slightly modified) sums it up better: “This is worse than a sin, it’s a mistake.”
JustMe, did someone argue Biden was “paragon of virtue?” Please. Stop with the strawmen. That’s not what this is about.
And then to attempt to pit Biden’s record of awfulness against Trump’s? Please. Would would have to happen to get you do actually question your position? The large amount of respected, experienced Republicans (many former Trump associates and appointees) calling the sounding cry isn’t doing it for you. Logic, reason, and evidence aren’t doing it for you. And I even think posts like this aren’t doing it for you either and aren’t helpful in the upfront. But comments like yours aren’t helping your case at all and simply make you look like an ostrich with their head in the sand.
Honestly, the attempts at bothsiderisms from the right can’t be any more laughable. I mean, look at Romney’s statement today–comparing Olbermann’s vile to Trump’s vile while ignoring that the multitude of right-wing talking heads (the closest equivalent) that argue the same things day in and out. I condemn Olbermann’s junk. But seriously, all you Republicans who are calling for people to turn over backwards to some “soul struggling” when you clearly haven’t done it, are failing. Steve Evans is right: you ask for good faith, but then fail to show any. I get it, Steve doesn’t offer evidence. But if you haven’t seen anything of concern or rational for concern at this point, then there are other reasons why your rebuttals are getting so summarily dismissed. It’s all over the place. This blog has offered many examples over the years.
sin, yes, but i suppose many are sinning in ignorance — Trump supporters I know seem to be living in a Fox News-constructed alternate reality from me. I can’t understand their reasoning because I can’t understand their perception of the world.
For me, all I need to do is look at his Twitter feed or listen to him speak — the bullying, the lying, the callousness towards most of humanity — to know he’s evil (yep, he’s evil! For reals. If the Church is going to judge the gays, I’m going to go ahead and judge The Donald. I judge him wanting.). No liberal news media to blame.
In 2016 we didn’t talk about Trump or the election much at home but our kids all instinctively recognized him as a bully when they saw him speak. Some how so many of us have become desensitized to that.
The problem with Trump is that as an outsider he has exposed Washington (and American) politics for what it really is: a cesspool of cronyism and back-door deals that infects both political parties. The same vices and “evils” he is accused of having is present in most of Washington, both elected officials and the bureaucracy that runs the government day to day. The Democrats have had four years to mount a well-thought out, reasoned challenger to President Trump and the best they can come up with is Biden/Harris and a campaign slogan that basically says “Trump Bad!” When Trump leaves office, the Republicans will probably do the same.
Yet Another John, If only that were the only problem with Trump.
Brian-
It speaks volumes of “good faith” that my comment is gone, but your rebuttal to my comment remains.
And not that it matters, but I didn’t vote for Trump.
You assume because I am able to speak to Biden’s terrible track record that somehow I am blind to Trump’s issues. More of that “good faith” you and yours refer to I suppose.
Thanks for the example of how it’s done.
JustMe, I had nothing to do with your comment removal. I also didn’t say you were blind to Trump’s issues. I was arguing that comparing the two is dangerous and minimizes the dangers of Trump. Again, you’re putting words in people’s mouths. Ditto to you.
Brian-
“Would would have to happen to get you do actually question your position?”
Your assumption that I haven’t questioned my position implies your opinion that I am blind.
Hence, I have not put words in your mouth.
I merely read your words and responded in kind.
Nor, interestingly enough, did I state a position, but merely explained my conundrum, which can no longer be read so, que sera I suppose.
I also did not accuse you of removing my comment.
But keep up the good fight.
You’ll convert many from their blindness- or rather, have them questioning their positions- in no time.
All the best.
Wow this thread feels like the good old days of Mormon blogging. You’ve got your “how dare you marshall arguments about morality in support of a cause that could in any way be seen as at odds with GOP/conservative ideology.” You’ve got your patient and reasoned responses to that. You’ve even got a classic, CLASSIC “I believe the bloggernacle has devolved over the years. Too much of what is posted and many of the comments are skewed towards nitpicking at the church and its leaders.” Wow, chef’s kiss for that comment. Thanks for playing along everyone, it’s been a real joyful stroll down memory lane (sincerely).
JustMe, this will be my last response to you. What I wrote (and what you quote) is in relation to the dangers of “bothsiderism”–and that is the position I was arguing needs to be reconsidered, though I can see how it might appear otherwise. Also, I was simply explaining that I didn’t have anything to do with removing your comment, in order to make transparent something that I felt should be.
To be short, I stand by my argument: the “bothsiderism” your comment propagated is dangerous and you seem obvious to that. Also, you attacked an argument that “Biden was a paragon of virtue” that no one was making. Perhaps you used that as a prop to introduce your “bothsiderism” but it wasn’t accurate and thus deceptive. Perhaps these are reasons why it was removed.
Finally, as to your concluding comments, your original comment would do no more to “convert many” than mine and yet you still made it.
And yes, I’ll keep up the good fight. Thanks.
Cynthia L., You missed the “how dare you marshall arguments about morality in support of a cause that could in any way be seen as at odds with anti-Trumpism.” Oh, but I guess that’s only about 4-5 years old. :)
Still amused.
Yep. Evil.
Forget evil. Trump is Pachus, leader of the King-men. A vote for Trump is a vote for authoritarianism–a vote to never cast another meaningful vote.
As for the language of the Church’s statement, the timing of the omission is unfortunate, but I argued against the language in a guest post at that political blog that was on the bloggernacle about 10 years ago. My case boiled down to the 1991 Louisiana gubernatorial race between Edwin Edwards, whose corruption was common knowledge and who later went to jail, and David Duke, leader of the KKK. A popular bumper sticker at the time read “Vote for the crook. It’s important.” Sometimes, you have to vote for the crook. But not this time.
I wish that calling it a sin would convince someone, anyone, to change their position and not vote for him.
Steve,
I don’t think anyone sins any more righteously than anyone else. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. With your logic, Hilliary is righteous? Right.
As for the election;
– I will choose jobs over mobs.
Try this evidence.
Sigh, another article slandering President Trump, with no evidence and no logic or reason. It would be great if leftists (especially ostensibly highly educated and LDS ones) could debate President Trump on his policies, successes (which are many), failures (which are few). Instead they trash his character, and call racist, sexist, homophobic and whatever other -ists and -phobias are in vogue.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.
Socrates,
If only there were a mechanism for having a “debate” like you suggest. You know, one where one side states their position while the other side listens, and then they trade, with the first person listening while the second talks. They could even televise them so the whole nation could hear both candidate’s positions. Or invite regular people to ask questions of the candidates so each side could present their answers to the questions presented. Kind like a town hall meeting.
Too bad nothing like that exists for the candidates to agree on some ground rules around and do exactly what you suggest here.
Arrogant. I agree with it, but asserting it is rank arrogance.
Thank you, Steve. Perfect.
I quit reading wheat and tares because of the political and social hissy fits. Please don’t turn BCC into the same. This post is not thoughtful. Steve’s responses have indicated he is not interested in any thoughtful discussion. BCC should be better than this.
Biden and the Leftists? Seriously?
America has no left, just a right wing party and a far right nationalist party. In any other country Bernie would be the sensible middle. But I suppose we aren’t any other country.
Anyway never fear, voting for Biden won’t get you even close to what leftists want. It will just excise (at least temporarily) the authoritarian cancer too many are currently embracing.
Less than a month until we find out (again!) that Utah’s Electoral College votes are belong to Trump. Spirit of Discernment? [insert sound of Mitch McConnell laughing here]
“When someone shows you who they are, believe them.” Have you seen or heard evil from Trump himself? Yes. Everyone has. And God won’t hold us accountable for knowing and still voting for him when the alternative candidate is much less evil????
For me, a moral evaluation of Trump is similar to an evaluation of mass shooters. That is, underlying the evil act is a mental illness which itself is not evil, at least in the same sense. As numerous psychiatrists and psychologists have been saying since he was elected, it is striking how much of Trump’s behavior can be explained by narcissistic personality disorder. I wonder whether more discussion of Trump from this perspective would lead to less histrionics in our political discussions.
Steve Evans, thank you for speaking truth.
We find ourselves in a true dilemma – stuck between two bad choices: Trump and all he represents on one side, and the nation-crushing path of identity politics on the other.
I feel about this post much as I do about people who loudly proclaim the consumption of coffee to be a sin. It only heightens the pleasure of transgressing.
And so, dear OP, you have helped this Pennsylvania voter decide to cast the forbidden, sinful vote. Many thanks. I needed something to tip me one way or the other. All I can say is, “neener neener!”
Well my Pennsylvania family of 3 voters will not be voting for mental illness. Does that heighten your pleasure?
I strongly suspect that tuzmano’s mind was already made up.
@food allergy: It heightens my pleasure about as much as would my knowing your PA family of 3 voters also think drinking coffee is a sin. That is to say, immensely.
@Steve: LOLZ. You don’t seem to understand the typical Trump voters at all. They voted for him as an f-you to the elites who looked down on them for their opinions. So don’t be surprised if your spiritual condescension has a similar effect. Unless, that is, your objective was not to actually change anyone’s mind but was more of a moral preening? In that case, as the majority of comments indicate, mission accomplished! You bastion of moral virtue, you.
My favorite reason to vote Trump is that he pisses off all the right people. This boring, self-righteous post is just one more piece of reinforcement.
My fellow Mormons broke my heart in 2016 when Utah and Idaho gave hime their majority votes. I knew what he was, and hoped my brothers and sister could too. Now we know what he is beyond any shadow of a doubt, yet my brothers and sisters are all in. Locking my heart this time
“They voted for him as an f-you to the elites who looked down on them for their opinions.” I believe that is true, to some extent. Problem is, it is now even easier, and more justifiable, to look down upon those opinions (those elites have been proven right). But they’ll double down on their reactionary vote, to the detriment of everyone, including themselves. It’s the ‘cutting off your nose to spite your face’ strategy. Well played!
tuzmano, then I am sorry to say that I believe the church’s current proscription of coffee has nothing to do with morality or righteousness. Similarly, voting for Trump in my view is also less about morality and more about his health, mental state, and competence. It is interesting that you and the other poster seem most motivated, among all the important questions facing our nation and world’s future, by personal spite. You are right that that is difficult to understand.
“You don’t seem to understand the typical Trump voters at all. They voted for him as an f-you to the elites who looked down on them for their opinions.”
“My favorite reason to vote Trump is that he pisses off all the right people”
These quotes alone prove my point, though there are lots of other proofs. Trump seems to exist in their minds as a means of vengeance for perceived slights, a way to stick it to others. That’s not healthy, people!
@ Steve: It might occur to you that people simply don’t like being told what to do or what to think. But you just can’t seem to help yourself. First moral, now health advice. Give it a rest.
Tuzmano, you seem to forget that I wrote the OP and this is my discussion thread! And no, you don’t seem healthy. Perhaps it is you who should rest.
While I agree with this post, part of me is hesitant to do so. It may be because I am a slothful and not a wise servant, and I fear that I might be wrong about something that hasn’t been “commanded in all things”. I don’t want be caught by surprise on Judgement Day. I want to be obedient to all of the Lords commandments and so would I feel justified in rebutting judgement with “But you didn’t tell me that!”? It would be nice to be commanded in all things so that I could be fully informed and not caught by surprise. Because if voting for Trump is a sin, and I voted for Trump, would I be angry with God to find out when the vote is held in judgement against me?
On the other hand if voting for Trump is not a sin, I’d really like to know why not.
The post makes it clear that 2+2 = 4. Could Trump voters claim on Judgement Day, “But every other commandment says ‘4’; why didn’t you make it clear that voting for Trump was a ‘4’?”
I suspect a big purpose of this mortal test is to figure out the 2’s and the +’s from the scriptures and knowing when they apply to situations we are faced with.
But still, stones and glass houses and all that.
Voting is a sin. Think about it. Ganging up with half your neighbors in order to choose who points guns at the other half of your neighbors (as well as at you and “your” half)?
No king but King Jesus.
“Trump seems to exist in their minds as a means of vengeance for perceived slights, a way to stick it to others.”
It is like throwing a hand grenade into a crowded room hoping to hit a few of KusoKurae’s “right people.” Weaponizing politics to the determent of the Republic is the very antithesis of patriotism. It is akin to treason.
None of you must have been around during the Nixon administration, the Trumpster may be a dolt… but RMN was simply sinister.
When I first read RMN I immediately thought of someone else. Threw me for a quick loop.
I often find the self-righteous to be entertaining. Thanks to those entertainers who disguise themselves as commenters and authors. May you always be funny.
I also often find it amusing that people calling out others as self-righteous in a public forum without the slightest bit of irony don’t realize it also make them self-righteous. But that’s what happens when people disguise themselves in the clothes of humility while wielding their supposed intelligence as a weapon in the hopes of cheap returns.
I dunno Steve. Most active lds I know are voting trump. The less activish seem to be for Biden.
With Bidens abortion, racism, ssm support etc I could easily make a counter argument
Gotta love the True Scotsman. Typical of Trump and his enablers. When you can’t play the game, change the rules.
CTR: why wouldn’t you think that the removal of that statement didn’t ALSO apply to Hillary Clinton in 2016 and Biden/Harris in 2020. Nothing has changed with this presidential election. Once again, voters are left with a choice between the lesser of two evils, neither of which is fit for the office. The same goes for their running mates.
I refused to vote for Trump in 2016 and I certainly won’t vote for him now. I felt the same about Clinton and surely do about Biden.
If not Americans withheld their vote from the morally, and ethically suspect politictians, we might end up with better ones in both parties.
Now, the partisans can no doubt do the moral calculus for why their candidate deserves the vote. And can further point to the many good things their administration will bring and bad things they will prevent.
But the reality is our elections all too often consist of people voting for someone who abuses the sacred principles they cherish in order to get the electorate to do battle on their part.
Vote for neither and let the chips fall where they may. Don’t lend your support to either of them.
Trump is exactly what this country needs
On the contrary, I think fewer voters as hoodwinked as ‘tell no one’ is what this country needs. I mean it, really. Anyone here what to argue that Biden is ‘exactly’ what this country needs? If you can’t find one thing wrong with your chosen candidate and you think they ‘exactly’ what we need, I seriously question your ability to think critically.
Sute, “Vote for neither and let the chips fall where they may. Don’t lend your support to either of them.”
That is precisely the kind of disengagement from politics that our adversaries abroad and autocrats at home are hoping for. If a critical mass of people turn away from politics in disgust, democratic institutions like separation of powers, the rule of law, civil liberties, etc. will not sustain themselves for long. Strong democracies depend on an engaged electorate who are willing to work through the frustrations and difficult compromises that the political process–and life for that matter–demands of us. This is why I ultimately agree with Steve’s post here. This election has moral implications for anyone who cares at all about continuing to live in a free democracy.
I guess it is ok to support a corrupt career politician who spent 25 years accomplishing nothing significant and threatened to withhold one billion dollars from Ukraine if they didn’t fire his corrupt son who only got the eighty eight thousand a month job because Ukraine used him to get favors from the US Vice President? Joe Biden is much more corrupt than Donald Trump. I think voters can make up their own minds without sinning.
Brad, I’m sure you mean something other than “threatened to withhold . . . if they didn’t fire his corrupt son,” but even if you did, that would be ignoring the Republican-led search into it that found nothing illegal or worth prosecuting. Problematic sure. But arguing that it’s somehow worse that the Trump clans appointments, is a whole another level. Then again, with a comment like yours, it’s difficult to believe that what constitutes you making up your mind amounts to much more than repeating debunked right-wing garbage. There’s a world outside of that bubble of fake news.
To all the Trump supporters demanding evidence of his evil and wrongdoing, may I recommend a document you may have heard of, but very likely haven’t read, known as the Mueller report. And since you very likely won’t read the 450-some page report, I’ll tell you what it says:
Volume I, on Russian election meddling: Russia definitely tried to sway the election in Trump’s favor through social media campaigns, organizing rallies in the US, buying ads, and hacking DNC emails and distributing the damaging ones at strategic points. Trump’s public comments explicitly encouraged them to do the latter, but it appears that the Trump campaign did not actually try to conspire with the Russians to get their help. It’s unclear whether the Russians changed any votes, but none of the unredacted parts give any indication of that.
Volume II, on obstruction: The report looks at 10 possible instances of Trump obstructing justice or obstructing an official proceeding. In two cases there’s some evidence but not enough to support an indictment. In the remaining eight, there’s very strong evidence of obstruction and the conclusion is very obviously that Trump committed obstruction. For each of those eight, it lists the elements of the offense and details how each element is met. The conclusion that the President obstructed justice in at least eight instances is unavoidable. Counter arguments, such as the idea that there can be no obstruction where there is no underlying crime, are systematically eviscerated in a separate section. The obvious conclusion of guilt isn’t explicitly stated, because Mueller thought it would be improper to accuse the President of a crime when he can’t be indicted and therefore can’t go to court and defend himself against the charge. Saying that’s the reason for not indicting would be tantamount to a public declaration of guilt, so Mueller wouldn’t say that, either.
This is the report that Trump and his proxies continue to claim totally exonerated him (Pence did it recently in the VP debate). It is blatant disinformation.
We could also discuss the Zelensky call, the promises to bail out loyal cronies with the pardon power, the accusations by not one or two but two *dozen* women of sexual assault and the boastful taped confession of doing exactly what he’s accused of, etc. etc. etc.
Caveats: I do believe he is a diagnosable narcissistic sociopath and I am in no position to judge what that may mean as far as his degree of moral culpability. I also recognize that most Trump voters have been fed years of propaganda that skews their perspective and I am not judging them for reaching what I consider obviously and tragically wrong conclusions.
To sin means to miss the mark. Yes, people missed the target choosing this man.
For whatever reasons, he isn’t the best of any bunch. To vote for someone just to upset others is hateful. Hate hurts us all. And it sure won’t help them think better of you. Hate is not what this country needs. Vote for nice people.
Who would have ever thought the “Constitution hanging by a thread” would be attributed to the Republicans inventing new methods to institute voter suppression not seen since post civil war.
“That is precisely the kind of disengagement from politics that our adversaries abroad and autocrats at home are hoping for.”
I didn’t say don’t vote. There are other candidates. They might be imperfect. You might disagree on some issues with them. Surely (I hope) even voters for Trump and Biden could say they disagree with their candidate on several issues.
It might also be said that our adversaries abroad and at home, hope that we will vote to continue to empower the same self-dealing “elite” who play one side of America against the other, weakening us all in the process.
I came of age to first vote in 1974, and I’ve never felt at all anxious about a coming election the way I do this one. It’s not my nature to indulge in negativity or paranoia, but I wonder what uncharted havoc may await us in the months and years of the next presidential election cycle. Maybe it’s covid fatigue, but from time to time, as I anticipate the outcome of this election, I feel a sense of dread that I’ve never before experienced, regardless of who wins the day. The damage that Trump and his enablers have done to the culture of our government is so conspicuous, and yet so many otherwise decent people close their eyes to it— possibly enough to re-elect him— that it makes me nervous and melancholy, and fearful of the future.
I agree with this judgment, it is sinful to let him continue to wreak havoc on every government institution and system we depend on.
In the end, this thread is just standard “I’m right/you’re wrong” fare that has become the norm for internet interactions (only this time, to my genuine surprise, it is not just “I’m right/you’re wrong”, it is also “I’m right/you’re a sinner.”)
Of course, not a single voter has changed her/his mind because of these exchanges. Not one.
And the absence of kindness and courtesy is so very discouraging, and reveals the inherent flaw of internet “communities”: when we forego eye contact and any semblance of authentic investment into the well-being of those with whom we interact, we somehow lose the capacity for compassion and empathy and patience and forgiveness. Our words become weapons. Perhaps not the best way to build the peaceable kingdom that our children and grandchildren deserve.
BCC has produced some pretty remarkable work over the years. Lots of incredibly intelligent writers and enough flashes of wisdom to keep me coming back. But this entire discussion is not a particularly flattering representation of what BCC is about, and the powers that be might do your cause good if this thread were to be removed in its entirety (my post included).
Maybe it’s not a sin to vote for DJT, but it’s quite clear *from statements made on this thread* that voting for him is evidence of a sinful disregard for others, in some cases even a sinful hatred of others.
Hoping we’re still a ways away from Ether 15, where the people of Coriantumr and Shiz were “…drunken with anger, even as a man qho is drunken with wine; and they slept again upon their swords.” Saying that a vote for DJT was a big f-u to the ‘elites’ doesn’t fill me with much hope.
What have democrats done that’s so offensive? Give people health insurance? Tax people? Attempt to use government to address social ills in a meaningful, effective way? I get that those efforts haven’t totally fixed any of the problems people face, but as a kid who grew up on reduced-price lunches at school, I’m also quite aware the failings of those programs stems from their under funding, not from their existence. We are so far from socialism (the government system that so resembles the law of consecration that I’ve never been convinced by arguments they’re different, but whatevs) it’d be funny if it wasn’t sad.
“Saying that a vote for DJT was a big f-u to the ‘elites’ doesn’t fill me with much hope.”
Hillary Clinton pretty much admitted to that. In her now infamous deplorables speech, the non-deplorables trump-supporter basket was described as…
>’But the “other” basket – the other basket – and I know because I look at this crowd I see friends from all over America here: I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas and – as well as, you know, New York and California – but that “other” basket of people are people who feel the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures; and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but – he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.’
https://time.com/4486502/hillary-clinton-basket-of-deplorables-transcript/
Pure evil. If there ever was a candidate for the Anti-Christ – as his supporters, the evangelicals, have written about what Scratch’s Little Helper would be like – this is your dude. One blogger wrote down 13 characteristics of the Savior in one column and then 13 opposite character traits of Trump. That summed it up well. Has no clue what he is doing. Scary, scary stuff.
Anabell, are you willing to revisit this thread in a week and post your findings? Because the fake news media on the right is constantly going to ‘unveil’ something with nothing actually being unveiled. All those Bill Gates Conspiracies, all those Hillary Clinton ones, all those Hunter Biden ones. All investigated and debunked. The media you are consuming isn’t delivering your truth; it’s delivering snake oil. If you want to make the argument that some Biden family member’s incompetence or evil deeds caused n number of deaths or corruption, but ignore the nxnxn number of deaths and amount of corruption by this administration, then you’re simply posting your gullibility online for everyone to see and verify in a few days.
For all you Doctor Who fans out there, everyone on this thread seems to be suffering from the same malady that Kate and the Clara-Zygon do in this clip.
“You’re all the same, all you screaming kids. You know that? ‘Look at me! I’m unforgivable!’ Well here’s the unforseeable. I forgive you. After all you’ve done, I forgive you.”
The whole county is going to die stupid.
*country
I found the attributes of Jesus vs. Trump. I believe it was written by Roger(?) Terry:
Just for a thought experiment, I’m going to list two sets of opposite character traits. As you read them, I want you to ask yourself which set of qualities describes Jesus and which set describes Donald Trump.
Love Animosity
Compassion Vindictiveness
Selflessness Egotism
Honesty Dishonesty
Humility Arrogance
Chastity Infidelity
Benevolence Spite
Kindness Cruelty
Decency Crudeness
Loyalty Deceitfulness
Serenity Anger
Honor Corruptness
rickpowers, the problem is that Trump supporters actually believe he possesses many of the virtuous characteristics, incredible though that may seem to you and me. Did you see the Republican convention and all the speakers going on about how he’s such a compassionate, caring person? That’s their reality, and to whatever degree they acknowledge his moral failings, they hand-wave it away with a combination of downplaying its severity, false equivalences (“Trump may have sexually assaulted a bunch of women, but Hillary Clinton stored her government emails on the wrong server! LOCK HER UP!”), and as a last resort, acknowledging some of his faults but claiming the Lord is working through an imperfect vessel.
It all depends on responding to a very selectively cultivated set of facts, which is why it’s not a coincidence that they ignore comments like my previous one breaking down the Mueller report’s findings.
I can look up stuff on the internet about one candidate but not compare that to the other one! It confirms what I want to to believe! Clearly I’ve done my research and anyone who says others (including the plethora of experienced, trusted Republicans who have worked directly with Trump) is just part of the deep state. End of discussion!
OR
“bothsiderism” blah, blah, blah.
Broken records based primarily on fake news sources and talking heads making a killing of selling their conspiracy theories. Freedom! Freedom! Freedom! Democrats are Evil! Constitution! Founding Fathers! Democrats are Evil! Second Amendment! Democrats are Evil!
Honestly, however, I’m impressed by so many of the libertarians I know or who have posted who on the bloggernacle who are voting for Biden, despite their many political disagreement with him. At least they can demonstrate that their heads aren’t stuck in the sand.
Brian,
It’s telling that you can’t dispute the factual accuracy of Biden’s racist statements and political grifting. Instead you appeal to authority (Republicans now voting for Biden (ignoring the Democrats now voting for Trump)) and rant about “bothsiderism” with an eloquent “blah, blah, blah” added in.
You prove my point perfectly about leftists (including ostensibly well-educated LDS ones) not being able to argue with the facts, but instead relying on name calling and slander. I’ll give you some credit though for adding in an appeal to authority, even though it’s a weak argument here (at least you’ve moved on from ad hominem) because politicians switch sides all the time.
Socrates, you have me wrong. True, I wan’t addressing the facts on Biden. Biden’s said racist stuff. I don’t like it one bit. He’s also engaged in ethically questionable behavior. I don’t like it one bit. I’m not proving your point at all. I don’t agree with the tactics of the OP. I wrote that in my first comment. So, if there’s a point to prove about something I wrote, you didn’t make it yet, especially with your blanket statement’s about ‘leftists.’
” I could go on and on about Biden’s other racist statements about Blacks, interracial marriage, Indian-Americans, etc. Google it and you’ll find plenty of past (and recent) racist statements.”
Sounds like you are describing past (present?) Church leaders here. If you can forgive them for these types of statements you can forgive Biden. It’s not hard.
Note to commenters: this site will not be a party to the propagation of false or misleading information. Comments repeating false information, conspiracy theories, etc. will be removed.
Thanks everyone for your participation but I think this discussion has reached the point of diminishing returns, so I’m going to close it down.